Ask The Pilot

[Simo]

i read somewhere that Airbus said it can not happen as the doors push in and not out as was also advised in the story.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

i read somewhere that Airbus said it can not happen as the doors push in and not out as was also advised in the story.

As I mentioned in the other thread on this - not sure what arrangements the A380 has, but it is possible on the 747 to partially open the doors in flight (provided the aircraft is depressurised).

 

[jb747]

As I mentioned in the other thread on this - not sure what arrangements the A380 has, but it is possible on the 747 to partially open the doors in flight (provided the aircraft is depressurised).

Opening a Boeing door, even with a little residual pressure, is safe, because the first stage of door opening pulls the door into the cabin and opens a large gap around the door through which any pressure ( or smoke which is the procedure you 're thinking of) can escape.

Airbus are not plugs, but the pressure required to release the locks is way beyond what the mechanism could handle. Opening one with a tiny amount of residual pressure killed a purser in the USA a few years ago.

 

[Flying Fox]

Opening a Boeing door, even with a little residual pressure, is safe, because the first stage of door opening pulls the door into the cabin and opens a large gap around the door through which any pressure ( or smoke which is the procedure you 're thinking of) can escape.

Airbus are not plugs, but the pressure required to release the locks is way beyond what the mechanism could handle. Opening one with a tiny amount of residual pressure killed a purser in the USA a few years ago.

The Boeing door thing I understand.

Could you please elaborate on the Airbus door and how it killed the purser?

Thanks

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The Boeing door thing I understand.

Could you please elaborate on the Airbus door and how it killed the purser?

Thanks

The crew member opened the door before the plane had completely depressurised. On opening the door the crew member was expelled from the aircraft and was killed on hitting the tarmac.

 

[Flying Fox]

The crew member opened the door before the plane had completely depressurised. On opening the door the crew member was expelled from the aircraft and was killed on hitting the tarmac.

Crumbs, I never realised that opening a door on the ground could be deadly.

Is there now a light/indicator next to doors indicating whether the cabin has been de-pressurised and hence safe to open the doors?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Crumbs, I never realised that opening a door on the ground could be deadly.

Is there now a light/indicator next to doors indicating whether the cabin has been de-pressurised and hence safe to open the doors?

IIRC the incident occured on an older A300 - not sure if they have the same indicator. In any event, I read somewhere that the pressure indicator light has its limitations, and will only activate if the pressure is above a certain level, and would not prevent an opening if the plane was still pressurised, but below the level required to illuminate the light...

 

[mjt57]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

IIRC it's been closed since 9/11 probably because it was a bit too easy to jump over the barrier and access airside areas. I expect it's a very low priority for the airport owners to build a 'secure' observation deck.

Yeah, they have the dough to build carparks and the infrastructure to charge for them, though...

When waiting for our flight home from SYD (T2) I watched a SIA A380 take off. It wasn't all that far from the terminal, but unfortunately my camera was packed away, otherwise I would've gotten a shot of it.

The SIA A380 seemed to level out shortly after gear was raised (at almost overhead where I was looking) and seemed to fly at around 3,000 to 4,000 ft for a while. Wonder why that was.

Sydney's gates have more windows and we could see more. Watched a QF A380 and a couple of QF 744s taxy over to the international terminal. For some reason though, the 744s were towed.

 

[jb747]

Crumbs, I never realised that opening a door on the ground could be deadly.

Is there now a light/indicator next to doors indicating whether the cabin has been de-pressurised and hence safe to open the doors?

Doors are extremely dangerous. Even on the ground it is a very long way down. Over the years numerous people have killed by falling from an open door.

On a large aircraft, a door has a area of about 4000 square inches. With an unnoticeable residual of .05 psi, that gives an opening force of 200lbs on the door. Just one of the reasons that the doors are opened from the outside.

 

[AVC]

Also a reason why you cant open a car door if the vehicle is submerged, unless you can break or open the window. The surface area just makes it physically impossible.

Doors are extremely dangerous.

Mmm, that's what I keep telling my daughter. You would be surprised at the number of injuries that kids get from doors (be they vehicle or building). Drawers aren't much better.

And, on to my question.

Fuel. What is the formula for how much reserve capacity you carry? Is it a time thing? Or a percentage, or enough to get you to alternate airport "x"?

 

[markis10]

IIRC the incident occured on an older A300 - not sure if they have the same indicator. In any event, I read somewhere that the pressure indicator light has its limitations, and will only activate if the pressure is above a certain level, and would not prevent an opening if the plane was still pressurised, but below the level required to illuminate the light...

Just a reminder on the rules pertaining to this thread:

As this is an "ask the pilot" thread, we ask that non-pilot members refrain from answering questions that have been directed to pilots until the pilots members have had a good opportunity to answer the question (i.e. at least 7 days). Posts contrary to this request or discussions that get too far off topic may be removed or moved to a more appropriate thread or forum so we can retain order and respect in this thread.

 

[Flying Fox]

Just one of the reasons that the doors are opened from the outside.

I thought that some FAs or maybe it was some years ago, that FAs opened the door a bit/broke the seal or whatever the correct term is and then the ground crews opened the door fully?

Maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[Major]

Doors are extremely dangerous. Even on the ground it is a very long way down. Over the years numerous people have killed by falling from an open door.

On a large aircraft, a door has a area of about 4000 square inches. With an unnoticeable residual of .05 psi, that gives an opening force of 200lbs on the door. Just one of the reasons that the doors are opened from the outside.

Even with the door open it's still dangerous

Accident: Chautauqua E145 at Cincinnati on Feb 19th 2013, flight attendant fell out of door

 

[Mattg]

This is more of an "ask the ATC" question, but I followed with interest the aircraft movements in SYD last night. Due to weather in MEL there were many planes delayed in Sydney and two Virgin aircraft ended up landing with just minutes to spare before 23:00.
1. I noticed that the inbound planes were flying very fast (obviously trying to make it before curfew), and this includes during the decent. At 6000 feet, VA885 was still travelling more than 325 knots. Is this normal practice and are there any risks involved in approaching this quickly?

2. Several aircraft took off after 23:00. Does the curfew not apply to departures?

 

[Mattg]

How many was several? And how big aircraft?

• The curfew applies to any aircraft movement about the airport, so departures and arrivals. Passenger aircraft can't depart after 2300h unless they have been granted dispensation. Someone can confirm, but I assume that the time the take off roll is started is counted as the time that the aircraft departs (that's being nit picky, but I take it that if you have been pushed back at the gate and it is already 2300h, it's too late).
• There are a range of non-passenger aircraft (e.g. mail) that can operate irrespective of the curfew.
• Aircraft don't actually have to "follow" the curfew, but if they elect to take off after the curfew has started, they may face fines. I assume that sometimes the fine will come and sometimes it's a case of, "can't be stuffed," so they get away with it.

Someone can confirm all of these.

From memory, there was a number of large cargo aircraft (a 747 included), a Jetstar flight and a Virgin 737 that departed after 23:00. The aircraft were all ready before 23:00 AFAIK but there was s lot of congestion and ATC gave landing aircraft priority.

 

[iRobbo]

Push back before 2300 = ok.

ATC doesn't actually stop you, there are just repercussions. Similarly, ATC can't close an airport, but pilots may elect not to make an approach.

A landing aircraft has priority over a departing aircraft.

 

[ReLoad]

Push back before 2300 = ok.

ATC doesn't actually stop you, there are just repercussions. Similarly, ATC can't close an airport, but pilots may elect not to make an approach.

A landing aircraft has priority over a departing aircraft.

I was once on the last SYD/MEL flight of the day and a thunderstorm came in closed the airport for a while, we pushed back at 2255, taxied out about 200m, then we were told due to aircraft in front of us we would not take off until well after 2330 so were denied dispensation and had to go back to the gate and overnight.

I have never heard a grumpier captain of a flight ever. I happened to be in the same bus to the hotel as the flight deck crew and they were great guys explained how much the curfew thing is a crock and how political it is.

My question is, just how much is the fine? And what is the appropriate scenario for dispensation, do the pilots directly apply to ATC and then some clown from Canberra gets involved?

 

[iRobbo]

Sorry, taxy clearance prior to commencement of curfew. AIP refers

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/SSYNA03-129.pdf

I think there are several threads on here discussing the fine, it is quite significant.

ATC not involved in dispensation. Never heard of a dispensation (in Sydney) for other than emergency, that's not to say it hasn't occurred. Other airports have sensible dispensations.

 

[jb747]

As has been said previously...please don't answer questions unless you happen to be ATC or an airline pilot...otherwise you're basically perpetuating the myths.

Flying Fox....doors are not 'cracked' by the cabin crew. The reason that they are opened from outside is that in the event that the door has not disarmed, the power opening will not take effect if the outside handle is raised...whereas from inside the door will be forced open and the slide will fire.

Taxy clearance is the curfew limit in Sydney. It has the most illogical and, well, worst, curfew that I've experienced. Horrid weather that disrupts flights. Who cares, don't come. It has the potential to lead pilots into very poor decisions in attempts to 'make' the curfew time, and as such is dangerous. But why would a Federal politician care about that?

 

[jb747]

I have never heard a grumpier captain of a flight ever. I happened to be in the same bus to the hotel as the flight deck crew and they were great guys explained how much the curfew thing is a crock and how political it is.

My question is, just how much is the fine? And what is the appropriate scenario for dispensation, do the pilots directly apply to ATC and then some clown from Canberra gets involved?

We all despise politicians. They work very hard to make flying as unsafe as possible.

The company looks after dispensations. That's pretty easy, as they aren't given.....in most cases anyway.