Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

JB, have you killed your YT channel? Just went there to check something out, but get message saying that it's "currently unavailable"...

If so, will you be making your vids available elsewhere?

Youtube sadly brought some of the wrong sort of attention. I'm considering reposting the better videos on Vimeo.

 

[jb747]

I guess when you're flying a narrowbody in from Denpasar on a flight that is the better part of 4 hours, the choices you have on what to do in these situations are somewhat limited.

One choice is that you can't do the flight. This stuff isn't supposed to be optional....

 

[Must...Fly!]

One choice is that you can't do the flight. This stuff isn't supposed to be optional....

What I forgot to mention is that the pilot on my flight did say the fog came in earlier than expected - however we had enough fuel for a divert to MEL, so despite that the contingency of filling her up in Sydney was planned for (I was flying VA). The late QF flight from Sydney didn't even bother and went pretty much straight to MEL.

Regardless you do raise an excellent point - If you have a forecast that is highly variable (as fog is), you have to plan for it. When your nearest 'big city' option is ADL (where you don't have any operational facilities nor prospect of anyone from the airline being there til 8am at best from MEL) and you are flying a 737 that surely has to be a serious consideration. KGI is there but that isn't somewhere you want to be (but better than a smoking crater).

It has been a while since I listened in to ATC and it is an insight of sorts in to what it's like for the decision makers during irrops. Along those lines I was not at all surprised as to the decisions of each of the arriving airline's flight crews as I listened - those who had a decent reason to try it did and moved on (EK), those who waited before taking the divert (JQ), those who thought outside the box of what ATC was offering before diverting (QF) and then Garuda. Something for us pax to think about when choosing an airline, perhaps.

 

[jb747]

Basically, at ANY time in flight, you must have somewhere to go, where the weather is ok, and you'll have adequate fuel. This could be your departure point.

As the flight progresses, the fuel load reduces, and the circle that encompasses your options slowly shrinks.

But you are not legally allowed to continue past any decision points unless you have somewhere legal to go.

So, on a flight to Perth from the north, Learmonth may be the divert point for a while. You cannot continue past the point at which you can't get back there, unless you have a viable weather forecast, and fuel required. If that subsequently changes, then so be it, but you can't plan that way (or perhaps, not plan that way).

When I was flying the 767, we regularly carried fuel to get back to the east coast if we could fit it on.

There are two ways at looking at diversion points. Sometimes you need them just to make yourself legal. Basically the weather isn't all that bad, but it's below the criteria. You will get in if you can legally have a go, so in that case outlying airfields, with little in the way of facilities, are viable. You almost certainly won't have to use them, but they make things legal. On the other hand, if the weather is a bit worse, and there is a real chance of actually diverting, then you don't want to end up at Learmonth. You land, sit on the ground for a number of hours waiting for the fog to burn off, and in the interim, the pilots run out of hours, and there is nowhere to put the passengers up. It's an outcome you don't want. So, if the weather is such that a diversion is actually a possibility, then you need to carry fuel, not for the legal alternate, but for the sensible alternate...which in Perth's case is on the other side of the country.

 

[petercr]

40% probability, between 1300 and 2300Z (2300 to 0900 local) of fog, with a visibility of 500 metres.

Well, I guess from hearing the plane delays on ABC radio this morning from BNE to SYD there musy be fog about... strangely did not hear any diversions into BNE (been a few A380's making visits lately)

Also heard that a VA flight to NZ had been delayed by nearly 9hrs... surely VA aren't that tight on planes??

 

[jb747]

Well, I guess from hearing the plane delays on ABC radio this morning from BNE to SYD there musy be fog about... strangely did not hear any diversions into BNE (been a few A380's making visits lately)

Also heard that a VA flight to NZ had been delayed by nearly 9hrs... surely VA aren't that tight on planes??

There is another thread, with extensive discussion on this subject, here. http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/travel-news/fog-in-syd-50773-14.html#post838922

VA. Virgin Atlantic? I'm sure they've got more than one aircraft, but I doubt that there are many around Oz. Or replacement crews for that matter.

 

[CaviAck]

There is another thread, with extensive discussion on this subject, here. http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/travel-news/fog-in-syd-50773-14.html#post838922

VA. Virgin Atlantic? I'm sure they've got more than one aircraft, but I doubt that there are many around Oz. Or replacement crews for that matter.

VA = Virgin Australia

I believe Virgin Atlantic is VS and Virgin America to be VX.

 

[iRobbo]

It has been a while since I listened in to ATC and it is an insight of sorts in to what it's like for the decision makers during irrops. Along those lines I was not at all surprised as to the decisions of each of the arriving airline's flight crews as I listened - those who had a decent reason to try it did and moved on (EK), those who waited before taking the divert (JQ), those who thought outside the box of what ATC was offering before diverting (QF) and then Garuda. Something for us pax to think about when choosing an airline, perhaps.

Not sure what you mean by ATC offerings. It is the pilots decision whether they attempt an approach, hold, or divert. ATC then just manages that decision.

 

[mjt57]

Youtube sadly brought some of the wrong sort of attention. I'm considering reposting the better videos on Vimeo.

That's no good.

Were you getting smart alecs posting comments or something?

Anyway, hope to see the show continue, whether on Vimeo or whatever.

Thanks.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Thank you again, jb.

Not sure what you mean by ATC offerings. It is the pilots decision whether they attempt an approach, hold, or divert. ATC then just manages that decision.

QF asked for RVRs to be done for both possible runways and suggested different approach vectors to try and get in however it was all for nought (they were the only ones I heard discuss this).

 

[iRobbo]

Thank you again, jb.


QF asked for RVRs to be done for both possible runways and suggested different approach vectors to try and get in however it was all for nought (they were the only ones I heard discuss this).

I see what you meant, ta

 

[SenZubEanS]

The patterns are built with a paxing sector from Sydney to do the 9, or they finish with a paxing sector after the 10. There aren't any patterns that start and finish in either Melbourne or Sydney. I expect they've looked at all the variations, and this is the cheapest crewing outcome.

So, if you are allocated to fly the 9, you're not allowed to just turn up to MEL and take the bird, you have to "clock on" in SYD?

 

[jb747]

So, if you are allocated to fly the 9, you're not allowed to just turn up to MEL and take the bird, you have to "clock on" in SYD?

No. As long as I inform them beforehand, and am available in Melbourne for any changes, they've no problem with starting (or stopping) in Melbourne. It lets them cancel a night's hotel accommodation too, and I get to use the ticket to get home from Sydney.

 

[mannej]

I know it has been mentioned before, but how high up on the list of priorities is making announcements from the coughpit?

This report seems to blast the airline in question based on the OP's knowledge as a "private pilot". You must chuckle at some of the information that comes out of these enthusiasts after each flight!
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemileatatime/2013/03/30/my-royal-jordanian-flight-from-hell/

 

[markis10]

I know it has been mentioned before, but how high up on the list of priorities is making announcements from the coughpit?

This report seems to blast the airline in question based on the OP's knowledge as a "private pilot". You must chuckle at some of the information that comes out of these enthusiasts after each flight!
My Royal Jordanian flight from hell… - One Mile at a Time

I have to agree with your chuckle, perhaps a case of a little bit of knowledge is dangerous, I expect the OP of the article would be unlikely to even hold an IFR rating based on the comments made.

Edit - reading the comments it would appear they are a long standing student:

Even as a student pilot, who hasn’t actually gotten their wings after starting in 2006

 

[mannej]

I am assuming he is on a Cessna 172 as well! Funny how he doesn't mention what aircraft type he is on.

 

[jb747]

I know it has been mentioned before, but how high up on the list of priorities is making announcements from the coughpit?

This report seems to blast the airline in question based on the OP's knowledge as a "private pilot". You must chuckle at some of the information that comes out of these enthusiasts after each flight!
My Royal Jordanian flight from hell… - One Mile at a Time

Basically a load of drivel.

I'm amused that he would even consider himself a pilot given his almost total lack of qualification. I certainly don't.

PAs do have some level of importance, but equally some airlines aren't all that big on it. One reason is that the pilots aren't native English speakers, and whilst they can handle the standard ATC phrases, conversational PAs may well be very difficult for you to understand.

I just love the rubbish about holding higher, so that they'd be out of the storms. That's not how it works. These storms go up a very long way. We virtually NEVER overfly storms. The reason he didn't experience any bumps when higher is simple...he was in a different place. Sometimes you're forced into closer proximity to storms than you would like. When they are everywhere, and you need to get down, you sometimes need to bite the bullet.

Hail? No...just heavy rain. It's loud enough in a car at 100 kph... at 500 kph it's extremely loud, and nicely removes paint too.

If you are hit by lightning it isn't a thump. That's just a solid hit on some turbulence. Lightning comes with thunder, and from zero feet away, it sounds like someone has just fired a 155 mm howitzer. For what it's worth, I once took multiple hits on one arrival to HK. The aircraft doesn't care.

Diversions....where to? Guanzhou, Shenzen, Macau are all quite close, and likely to have the same weather. Taipai is further away, as is Manila, and both could be beyond reach. The fuel loading may simply have said TEMPO thunderstorms, in which case they are legal as long as they arrive with 60 minutes holding. They don't have to have both that, and the ability to fly to somewhere a couple of hours away.

Crying cabin crew.....means nothing. Cabin crew may well fly for a living, but they are generally as inexperienced in the world of aviation as the average passenger.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Having flown on RJ a bunch of times between TLV-AMM and AMM-BKK I think the male "Flight Attendants" may in fact be air marshalls.

All the times I've flow RJ previously both the Tech and Cabin Crews have been extremely professional. As JB747 states the PA's from the Tech Crew are at a minimum due to English being (in some cases) their 3rd or 4th languageto the extent where in some cases the Cabin Crew translate any PA's made by the Tech Crew.

 

[markis10]

Having flown on RJ a bunch of times between TLV-AMM and AMM-BKK I think the male "Flight Attendants" may in fact be air marshalls.

All the times I've flow RJ previously both the Tech and Cabin Crews have been extremely professional. As JB747 states the PA's from the Tech Crew are at a minimum due to English being (in some cases) their 3rd or 4th languageto the extent where in some cases the Cabin Crew translate any PA's made by the Tech Crew.

I am a bit circumspect about your post, given fluency in English is required for pilots in all but China airspace AFAIK?

 

[jb747]

I am a bit circumspect about your post, given fluency in English is required for pilots in all but China airspace AFAIK?

Whilst it is a requirement, the outcomes vary enormously. Heck, I have trouble understanding the Americans at times. Koreans in particular can be very hard to understand. I expect it has more to do with accent than the actual words used. We regularly hear conversations go amuck between ATC and aircraft. Whilst both halves of the conversation are ostensibly speaking English, the outcomes are often very confusing, when English is the native tongue of neither.