Ask The Pilot

[petercr]

So the pilot says 'hey that looks like where I need to land' and takes command back from the auto-pilot? If so I would have thought the need to apply more than the necessary flight control inputs would be a decent size hint that it was a 'carbon-based interface error'...

 

[jb747]

So the pilot says 'hey that looks like where I need to land' and takes command back from the auto-pilot? If so I would have thought the need to apply more than the necessary flight control inputs would be a decent size hint that it was a 'carbon-based interface error'...

In some cases (i.e. the runway being much closer) that's exactly what would happen, and you might think that would be enough of a give away. But in others, for instance Wigram (which looks like it might be housing now) and Christchurch, or Essendon and Tullamarine, the error wouldn't require much change at all if you happened to be coming from the right direction. In the USA, which is where we've recently been hearing of these event, it's an extremely airport rich environment.

I recall hearing of someone who even landed a helicopter on the wrong aircraft carrier.

A basic rule of aviation is that if a mistake can be made, then not only will it, but it will be done many times. Of course that also applies to aircraft designers...

 

[markis10]

In some cases (i.e. the runway being much closer) that's exactly what would happen, and you might think that would be enough of a give away. But in others, for instance Wigram (which looks like it might be housing now) and Christchurch, or Essendon and Tullamarine, the error wouldn't require much change at all if you happened to be coming from the right direction. In the USA, which is where we've recently been hearing of these event, it's an extremely airport rich environment.

It certainly was the case in Melbourne for some time with pilots thinking Essendon was the right runway when on a right base to 34, which is why they put the running rabbit in.

 

[mjt57]

which is why they put the running rabbit in.

The running rabbit???

 

[markis10]

The running rabbit???

Its a series of strobes leading to the threshold at Tulla on 34.

Sequenced flashing lights are sometimes colloquially called

the rabbit or the running rabbit

Approach lighting system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mjt57]

JB, there will be a historical military air display at Pt Cook on the weekend of 2nd March. Should be interesting to see all the old (and not-so-old) warbirds there.

Sadly there's no A4 display or demo on the part of the Navy.

Will you be going?

Do you ever go to airshows?

 

[jb747]

JB, there will be a historical military air display at Pt Cook on the weekend of 2nd March. Should be interesting to see all the old (and not-so-old) warbirds there.

Sadly there's no A4 display or demo on the part of the Navy.

Even if they had a flyable A4, there's no way any of Pt Cook's runways could be used. Even Laverton, when it was an operating field, was too short. From what I gather, the FAA museum has passed the aircraft that they used to fly on to HARS. No money for that sort of thing.

Will you be going?

No, I'll be in Sydney in the sim.

Do you ever go to airshows?

Last one I went to was Laverton in 1985. The low level CT4 display was my last flight in a RAAF/RAN aircraft.

 

[PaulST]

How many engines can you fly on?

Hi! Thanks for answering the questions - it has made for interesting reading.
I'm curious to know, can a 747 and/or an A380 stay in the sky with only two functioning engines? And can the twin engine planes like the 777, 787 and A330 fly with only one engine?
I've googled this but I've only found a whole lot of conjecture from people with unknown/questionable qualifications.

 

[jb747]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

I'm curious to know, can a 747 and/or an A380 stay in the sky with only two functioning engines? And can the twin engine planes like the 777, 787 and A330 fly with only one engine?
I've googled this but I've only found a whole lot of conjecture from people with unknown/questionable qualifications.

The twins can all lose an engine at V1 on the runway, continue the take off and fly away. This applies at all weights up to the maximum.

The quads are more restricted. They can lose one engine on the runway, and continue, but the loss of a second will cause issues. Generally, if you lose one, and are able to climb to about 1,000 feet before shutting the second down, then you'll be able to very slowly accelerate and climb away. Once the aircraft is clean, they fly perfectly well on two engines.

 

[PaulST]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Thanks for the reply!
By "clean", you mean once they've reached cruising altitude?

 

[Major]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

In a recent incident the final report mentions "alpha prot" What exactly is that ?

Incident: Air France A321 at Paris on Jul 20th 2012, speed drops to alpha prot on approach

(this incident also reinforces my decision to still have AF on my no fly list)

 

[markis10]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Rules Reminder:

As this is an "ask the pilot" thread, we ask that non-pilot members refrain from answering questions that have been directed to pilots until the pilots members have had a good opportunity to answer the question (i.e. at least 7 days). Posts contrary to this request or discussions that get too far off topic may be removed or moved to a more appropriate thread or forum so we can retain order and respect in this thread.

 

[jb747]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Thanks for the reply!
By "clean", you mean once they've reached cruising altitude?

No, I mean once the gear and flaps are retracted.

If you happen to be in the cruise and lose an engine or two, you will generally have to descend. One engine out, normally not far, 3-5,000 feet. Two engines, and you'll need to descend about 15,000 feet.

 

[tgh]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

The quads are more restricted. They can lose one engine on the runway, and continue, but the loss of a second will cause issues..

reluctant to go here for obvious reasons.. but hypothetically.. what kind of response might you train for in losing say one at v1 and a second a few seconds later.
Do you have any go to options such as emergency overfuelling that might damage the remaining engines but save the.. er um day ..

 

[jb747]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

The quads are more restricted. They can lose one engine on the runway, and continue, but the loss of a second will cause issues..

reluctant to go here for obvious reasons.. but hypothetically.. what kind of response might you train for in losing say one at v1 and a second a few seconds later.
Do you have any go to options such as emergency overfuelling that might damage the remaining engines but save the.. er um day ..

Can you build scenarios that I can't fly out of...easy. And this is probably one of them.

At heavy weight, you aren't going to fly if you lose two on the runway. The best option will be to abort, get rid of whatever speed you can, and accept that it's going to be a heap of rubbish at the end of the runway. Even airborne, letting it land straight ahead might be the best answer...irrespective of what is there. Even if things are going very badly, it's still best to arrive at the ground under control.

On the other hand, if I've got an engine failure, and a fire on another, I haven't lost two engines until I shut down the one that is on fire. I can delay that as long as required to ensure it will fly. Deal with the fire issues later. If you look at the Concorde crash, they were doomed when the engineer shut down an engine with a fire warning, without the captain's command. He would have wanted the power, and wouldn't have cared if it melted giving it.

 

[petercr]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

and I guess something like the US Airways Hudson River landing.Both engines being fodded out by birds almost instantaneously didn't give the pilot much chance...

 

[legroom]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Can you build scenarios that I can't fly out of...easy. And this is probably one of them.

At heavy weight, you aren't going to fly if you lose two on the runway. The best option will be to abort, get rid of whatever speed you can, and accept that it's going to be a heap of rubbish at the end of the runway. Even airborne, letting it land straight ahead might be the best answer...irrespective of what is there. Even if things are going very badly, it's still best to arrive at the ground under control.

On the other hand, if I've got an engine failure, and a fire on another, I haven't lost two engines until I shut down the one that is on fire. I can delay that as long as required to ensure it will fly. Deal with the fire issues later. If you look at the Concorde crash, they were doomed when the engineer shut down an engine with a fire warning, without the captain's command. He would have wanted the power, and wouldn't have cared if it melted giving it.

Wow, I am surprised.

I always thought that everything - I mean, everything - on the plane has to be approved by the PIC (Pilot in Command).

Scary !

 

[Alanslegal]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

On the other hand, if I've got an engine failure, and a fire on another, I haven't lost two engines until I shut down the one that is on fire. I can delay that as long as required to ensure it will fly. Deal with the fire issues later. If you look at the Concorde crash, they were doomed when the engineer shut down an engine with a fire warning, without the captain's command. He would have wanted the power, and wouldn't have cared if it melted giving it.

Nice description on how it really works, as to most lay people they would think that the moment a fire is detected, the logical step is shut the engine off immediately without thinking/working out the pro's & con's initially.

 

[NM]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Note that I have moved a few posts relating to ET702 to its own thread here:

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ethiopian-et702-squarks-7500-hiack-58012.html

 

[tgh]

Re: How many engines can you fly on?

Can you build scenarios that I can't fly out of...easy. And this is probably one of them.

At heavy weight, you aren't going to fly if you lose two on the runway. The best option will be to abort, get rid of whatever speed you can, and accept that it's going to be a heap of rubbish at the end of the runway. Even airborne, letting it land straight ahead might be the best answer...irrespective of what is there. Even if things are going very badly, it's still best to arrive at the ground under control.

On the other hand, if I've got an engine failure, and a fire on another, I haven't lost two engines until I shut down the one that is on fire. I can delay that as long as required to ensure it will fly. Deal with the fire issues later. If you look at the Concorde crash, they were doomed when the engineer shut down an engine with a fire warning, without the captain's command. He would have wanted the power, and wouldn't have cared if it melted giving it.

Leads me to a supplementary question.. sorry ..
Do you run/exercise "unwinnable" scenarios in the sim ?
If so, what happens , is there a loud bang and flash of heavenly light ??