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JB747 - I was on Monday's QF127 A380 service from SYD-HKG. The route was consistent with that I've previously flown however what was different is that for the first 3.5-4hrs of the flight we stayed down at FL300 until we were into the Gulf of Carpentaria where we climbed to FL360 then eventually stepped to FL380 arriving into HKG about 20 minutes ahead of schedule. On previous flights we would normally climb to FL340 then step climb up to either FL380 or FL400. I'm presuming the lower initial FL was to get out of the jet stream across Australia at the higher levels. The question for you is does the Tech Crew or Flight Ops make the decision on planned flight levels? In order to maintain schedule do the tech crew of Flight Ops analyse a trade off between an increased fuel burn for 3.5hrs at FL300 with a higher ground speed compared to a higher initial altitude with a lower ground speed due to head winds. Given a 9hr SYD-HKG sector the trade-off would be minimal however on a DFW-BNE (soon to be DFW-SYD) or even LAX-MEL the trade off could be material as you could be weight limited.

Thanks in advance.
 
I was in a discussion with my father tonight and he said that aircraft generally consume less fuel at a lower altitude.

His reasoning was that at lower altitudes, the oxygen concentration is higher and thus with more oxygen ensures closer to complete combustion of fuel and hence better use of the fuel.

However, my counter - which I thought was the predominant opinion - is that the air drag is higher at lower altitudes, which increases fuel consumption overall. Basically drag forces at lower altitudes overrides any benefit to more effective combustion.

Could you please comment on this?

I understand this question discounts a lot of other factors, like jetstreams, the presence and effect of weather...
 
Is the saying “eight hours from bottle to throttle” or 18 hours from the bottle to throttle? I've always thought the general rule was 18 hours, but (and I should really learn never to trust a news limited site) news.com.au just published it as 8. Just curious which one it is.

As the man above me rightly said, the saying is just a saying but is still true to a certain extent.

CASA's requirement is at a minimum 8 hours bottle to throttle AND a Breath Alcohol Concentration of less than 0.02%. It is my inference that the 0.02% rule comes in the wake of crews having one too many the previous night and rocking up to the crew room the next morning still pissed. It does happen.
 
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I was in a discussion with my father tonight and he said that aircraft generally consume less fuel at a lower altitude.

His reasoning was that at lower altitudes, the oxygen concentration is higher and thus with more oxygen ensures closer to complete combustion of fuel and hence better use of the fuel.

However, my counter - which I thought was the predominant opinion - is that the air drag is higher at lower altitudes, which increases fuel consumption overall. Basically drag forces at lower altitudes overrides any benefit to more effective combustion.

Could you please comment on this?

I understand this question discounts a lot of other factors, like jetstreams, the presence and effect of weather...

Unfortunately for your Father, I vouch for you on this one.
The general consensus is that, amongst other technical variables such as Cost Index, Load e.t.c, an aircraft burns less fuel at higher altitude for pretty much the reasons you've described.

You'll often find with long haul flights that the aircraft will start off at a lower altitude, say, 36,000ft, and as it becomes lighter and can produce enough lift at higher altitude, it will climb by about 2,000 ft at a time as the flight progresses (step-climb) for maximum fuel economy.

That's my 2 cents.

Cheers
 
Just a reminder about the unusual rules for this thread, discussion is limited generally to questions and then answers from pilots:

As this is an "ask the pilot" thread, we ask that non-pilot members refrain from answering questions that have been directed to pilots until the pilots members have had a good opportunity to answer the question (i.e. at least 7 days). Posts contrary to this request or discussions that get too far off topic may be removed or moved to a more appropriate thread or forum so we can retain order and respect in this thread.
 
JB747 - I was on Monday's QF127 A380 service from SYD-HKG. The route was consistent with that I've previously flown however what was different is that for the first 3.5-4hrs of the flight we stayed down at FL300 until we were into the Gulf of Carpentaria where we climbed to FL360 then eventually stepped to FL380 arriving into HKG about 20 minutes ahead of schedule. On previous flights we would normally climb to FL340 then step climb up to either FL380 or FL400. I'm presuming the lower initial FL was to get out of the jet stream across Australia at the higher levels. The question for you is does the Tech Crew or Flight Ops make the decision on planned flight levels?

When the flight plan is generated (by Despatch, a component of Flight Ops), climb points may be moved away from the 'optimum' to allow for winds or known external issues (i.e. we don't change altitude in some airspace due to ATC issues). But, like everything in aviation, once underway, the flight plan, like any other plan, is subject to change. The crew decide when they would like to climb, and will then do so subject to ATC. With large wind changes at altitude, we can very simply ascertain from the FMC whether a climb vs wind tradeoff is worthwhile.

When held below our desired cruise level, the target mach number is reduced, otherwise the fuel burn can become quite limiting. But, if you are trying to make up time, and fuel burn is not a consideration (unlikely these days), you'll generally be able to maximise the ground speed at around FL280-300 (depending upon the wind, of course).

In the case you've mentioned, it sounds like at least part of the delay in climbing was ATC, with insufficient separation from other traffic to allow the climb.

In order to maintain schedule do the tech crew of Flight Ops analyse a trade off between an increased fuel burn for 3.5hrs at FL300 with a higher ground speed compared to a higher initial altitude with a lower ground speed due to head winds. Given a 9hr SYD-HKG sector the trade-off would be minimal however on a DFW-BNE (soon to be DFW-SYD) or even LAX-MEL the trade off could be material as you could be weight limited.

On very long haul flights we cannot ever afford to stay low unnecessarily, and if we're late will always want to climb and make any speed adjustments at our optimum levels. The ability to adjust the speed is quite limited, but, even a small increase, applied over 10-15 hours can be worthwhile. It's rare to be able to recover more than about 15 minutes.
 
CASA's requirement is at a minimum 8 hours bottle to throttle AND a Breath Alcohol Concentration of less than 0.02%. It is my inference that the 0.02% rule comes in the wake of crews having one too many the previous night and rocking up to the crew room the next morning still pissed. It does happen.

Companies also test, and can/do apply more stringent limits.

I think the .02 appeared (8 hours had been the time honoured limitation) for the very simple reason that they wanted to start random testing, and without a blood alcohol limit could not reasonably do so.
 
I was in a discussion with my father tonight and he said that aircraft generally consume less fuel at a lower altitude.

His reasoning was that at lower altitudes, the oxygen concentration is higher and thus with more oxygen ensures closer to complete combustion of fuel and hence better use of the fuel.

However, my counter - which I thought was the predominant opinion - is that the air drag is higher at lower altitudes, which increases fuel consumption overall. Basically drag forces at lower altitudes overrides any benefit to more effective combustion.

Could you please comment on this?

I understand this question discounts a lot of other factors, like jetstreams, the presence and effect of weather...

Whilst the amount of oxygen available at sea level is greater than it is at altitude, the actual concentration is much the same (at least at any altitude that I might care about). So for a given mass air flow the percentage of oxygen is more or less the same. Fuel flow is directly related to air flow....feed the engine more air, and give it more fuel, and vice versa. The upshot is that the level of combustion 'completeness', is effectively the same.

As the altitude increases, an engine produces less power at a given RPM. The fuel required for RPM also reduces, ultimately reaching the odd situation that the minimum fuel flow will produce the maximum RPM (and of course, bugger all thrust). Whilst not something that airline crews have to worry about, it was an issue on the 'Streak Eagle' time to altitude record flights done by the F15 in its early days, as it meant that the engines had to be shut down during the zoom climb, and then relit on the way down.

Jet engines are most efficient at a particular RPM. That happens to be very close to their maximum RPM. You never want to be thrust limited in the cruise (which would mean you would never have any excess power available), so cruise altitudes are chosen to give RPM settings that have about 10% margin. So, from an engine point of view, at any altitude, I'd want to set that same RPM for all altitudes.

The other part of this equation is the airframe. All aircraft have a most efficient angle of attack. That will equate to roughly the same indicated airspeed at all altitudes. So, picking a number as an example, that might be around 270 knots IAS. The thrust required to fly that IAS will be the same at all altitudes, but because the engine thrust varies with altitude, the engine may only require 70% RPM to give the thrust required at 5,000', whilst it would require 100% RPM to do so at FL350. So, whilst my airframe is happy at its best angle of attack, in the low level case the engines are well off their best (high) RPM. So, ideally, you want a situation in which the thrust required is at near maximum RPM, and the airframe is at that best alpha (angle of attack). You can get that situation by simply climbing until the engine thrust (at best RPM) has reduced to match that required by the airframe.

The other part of the equation is the IAS/TAS relationship. At sea level, indicated airspeed and true airspeed are basically the same thing. If you drive along at 100 miles per hour, and stick your hand out the window, you will feel 100 mph worth of wind. But, at altitude (say FL400) there is a lot less air. If I was at FL400, and still doing a REAL 100 mph, sticking my hand out the window, I'd only feel 50 mph worth of breeze. That's the difference between TAS and IAS. Indicated is what the airflow feels like to the aircraft, whilst true is the actual speed that we're moving through the air mass. True is what you use to navigate by (apply the wind vector to TAS and you get groundspeed), whilst indicated is what the wings feel, and which makes the aircraft fly. Up to around FL300 this relationship means that as I climb I keep getting a better TAS for my fixed (best) IAS.

Above roughly FL300, this all still holds true, but another limitation starts to come into play. As we've been climbing at our constant IAS, the mach number (percentage of the speed of sound) has been increasing. This has been happening for two reasons. First, we are actually accelerating (same IAS, but higher TAS as we climb). Secondly, the speed of sound is slower at altitude. The upshot is that we have a maximum speed limit in mach as well as IAS, so eventually we have to move away from our climb IAS and move to a mach number.

So, if you're still with me, at our initial cruise altitude (chosen so that the airframe is at that best alpha, and the engines simultaneously are at their happiest RPM), we settle down. But, our weight does not stay the same....we're reducing weight as the fuel load is burnt down. As the weight decreases, the alpha needs to be reduced as we don't need to make the same amount of lift any more. If we want to keep that same alpha, the target airspeed will be slightly slower. That also means we'll need less power. And of course, our TAS is reduced. Once the weight has reduced enough that there is sufficient power for the next climb step, then you climb to the next ATC allowed level, and start the cycle again. As a rough guide, the speed will reduce by about .02 mach before each 2,000' step.
 
This is the forecast I'd be using, the Bureau's aviation forecast.

Thanks for the earlier explanation on how to interpret the weather report.

I just went to ASA's weather reporting site and entered in YMML to see what's happening. But, my schoolboy Sumerian again fails me.

If you could please have a look for me I'd appreciate it.

The civilian forecast is for some rain and cloud. That usually means there'll be little fog. Well, hopefully, anyway.
 
Thanks for the earlier explanation on how to interpret the weather report.

I just went to ASA's weather reporting site and entered in YMML to see what's happening. But, my schoolboy Sumerian again fails me.

If you could please have a look for me I'd appreciate it.

The civilian forecast is for some rain and cloud. That usually means there'll be little fog. Well, hopefully, anyway.

Strong northerlies with rain. Won't be any fog with that weather. You should be ok.
 
The fuel required for RPM also reduces, ultimately reaching the odd situation that the minimum fuel flow will produce the maximum RPM (and of course, bugger all thrust). Whilst not something that airline crews have to worry about, it was an issue on the 'Streak Eagle' time to altitude record flights done by the F15 in its early days, as it meant that the engines had to be shut down during the zoom climb, and then relit on the way down.

JB, can you explain the above paragraph? I'm aware of the 'Streak Eagle' and the time-to-height records etc it set but can't quite get my head around the concept you mention - I would have thought in this situation they would have shut the engines down to avoid stalling and the possibility of then not being able to re-start (working on the engines turning = plane not falling out of the sky principle). Could you elaborate further or suggest some online reading matter?
 
JB, can you explain the above paragraph? I'm aware of the 'Streak Eagle' and the time-to-height records etc it set but can't quite get my head around the concept you mention - I would have thought in this situation they would have shut the engines down to avoid stalling and the possibility of then not being able to re-start (working on the engines turning = plane not falling out of the sky principle). Could you elaborate further or suggest some online reading matter?

What, the fact that it still flew and climbed, a long way, without engines? That's what a heap of kinetic energy can do. If I recall correctly the engine start systems were modified to ensure relights when needed.

Some reading here: 16 January 1975 | This Day in Aviation
 
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JB, thanks for the reply - was trying to get my head around the concept of min fuel flow at that altitude giving max rpm

The following phrase in the article you quoted explains why they had to shut the engines down and that makes sense...
He held 60° until he had to shut down the engines to prevent them from overheating in the thin high-altitude atmosphere.
 
Thanks for the earlier explanation on how to interpret the weather report.

I just went to ASA's weather reporting site and entered in YMML to see what's happening. But, my schoolboy Sumerian again fails me.

If you could please have a look for me I'd appreciate it.

If anyone is interested in deciphering the 'Sumerian' themselves, and perhaps learning a bit of it, a site called Plain English MET (pemet.com.au) is a handy tool. Just paste any aviation met forecast you can find into the box and it does a pretty good job at turning it into a readable format. Has a link to the ASA forecasts as well.



OzEire
 

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