Ask The Pilot

[QF029]

Not strictly a question for our pilots, but how do the runway naming conventions work? They all seem quite similar at different airports.

 

[nlagalle]

Not strictly a question for our pilots, but how do the runway naming conventions work? They all seem quite similar at different airports.

You mean 34L etc?

The number is the direction of the runway and the letter is which runway. So from the above:

34 = 340 degrees
L = left runway. Note the letters are only there if there are parallel runways. E.g Sydney

And when they change runways they reverse:

16R

 

[markis10]

Not strictly a question for our pilots, but how do the runway naming conventions work? They all seem quite similar at different airports.

Its the magnetic heading of the the runway in most cases rounded to the nearest 10th (340 degrees becomes 34, 250 becomes 25), with L , C or R added to differentiate multiple parallel runways. Where two airports are close together with the same runway headings one will be changed slightly to ensure there is no confusion, which is why both Tulla and Essendon have runways at 80 degrees (77/83), but MEL has Rwy 09 while MEB is RWY 08.

 

[jb747]

So when you're watching a movie, and see reference to a runway 40, you know they did a total of zero research.

Left, centre and right are added as needed. Places like LA, with four parallel runways give one pair a different number, so they have 25L/R and 24 L/R, even though they all have the same heading. The number is based on the magnetic heading of the runway, and as that slowly changes over time (the magnetic poles move), some runways do end up being renumbered...and other places never bother.

Hadn't thought of the Essendon example, but then that's a place I only ever fly over....

 

[markis10]

Its actually 09 thats modified at MEB/MEL, not 16 as I originally posted (and now edited). It was a little bit of trivia I picked up working in both towers! MEL 34 has the running rabbit thanks to MEB and the odd attempt to land at the wrong airport! I would have to check the charts but I believe its also changed where there are multiple parallel runways, such as LAX with 06 & 07 L&R.

 

[Sifor]

My Jeppesen charts are a tad old and I'm wondering if YBCG has received an ILS yet?

Edit: wait no, Google is my friend... still only VOR-DME

 

[QF029]

Thanks guys. That actually would have been my guess so I wasn't too far off. I'm assuming that most (major) airports have perpendicular runways to best cater for the various wind directions? This is a real novice question but does the takeoff direction vary (frequently or at all) on the same runway (eg 16 at MEL) according to how strong a northerly or southerly is blowing? I'm thinking yes but I've never paid that much attention.

 

[jb747]

Thanks guys. That actually would have been my guess so I wasn't too far off. I'm assuming that most (major) airports have perpendicular runways to best cater for the various wind directions?

Wouldn't it be nice to think that runway directions are chosen to suit the aircraft/winds. Basically, I think most directions are simply the result of the geography of a place, mixed with a bit of hope that the results will work for the operators.

Story, which may, or may not, be true, about the new owners of Sydney airport. When 16L/34R was built, they thought that they'd be able to close 07/25 and use the space for shopping centres. The idea that big aircraft have crosswind limits was totally alien to them.

This is a real novice question but does the takeoff direction vary (frequently or at all) on the same runway (eg 16 at MEL) according to how strong a northerly or southerly is blowing? I'm thinking yes but I've never paid that much attention.

Ah...all operations to 16 are in the same direction. If you want to go the other way, then you're using 34...which is, of course, the same bit of concrete.

Below is the ATIS for Melbourne right now. As you can see, the wind direction is neatly between two of the runways, but the crosswind component on both is reaching 20 knots. So, if the wind were to increase by about 7 knots, that would give a 25 knot crosswind, onto a wet runway, which would exceed many aircraft limits.


APCH: EXPECT INSTRUMENT APPROACH RWY: 16 FOR ARRS. RWY 27 FOR DEPS SFC COND: WET OPR INFO: TWY E BTN RWY 16 AND TWY F NOT AVBL + WIND: 210/10-20. MAX XW 20 KTS BOTH RWYS VIS: 10 KM, REDUCED TO 6 KM IN SH CLD: FEW010..BKN020 TMP: 8 QNH: 1016

 

[QF029]

I've just checked out the MEL runways using google maps and now realise that 16/34 and 09/27 are actually the same runways depending on your approach direction. You learn something new everyday!

Is it commong to use 6 or 7 into LAX? It would be quite scenic coming in over the water.

 

[serfty]

...

Is it commong to use 6 or 7 into LAX? It would be quite scenic coming in over the water.

I would say not common, even rare.

From the dozens of time I have landed or taken off at LAX 24/25's are used most often. (Presumably for noise abatement or safety reasons.) In fact I am struggling to remember heading East other than the one landing¹ (Water, Beach, barren land, runway ... in quick succession.)

¹ Once in 2006 I landed in the afternoon on a very late QF25 onto a 7 runway and had to taxi all the way to a hard stand Diametrically opposite the aerodrome from where the aircraft ended up (then came the bus trip back to T4).

 

[jb747]

I've just checked out the MEL runways using google maps and now realise that 16/34 and 09/27 are actually the same runways depending on your approach direction. You learn something new everyday!

Is it common to use 6 or 7 into LAX? It would be quite scenic coming in over the water.

Dunno what would be scenic about it. Water is all you'd see.

In 26 years, I've never landed on 06 or 07, and I've taken off from 07 once.

 

[mannej]

I know there are a lot of pilots in the QF group, but how well or how often do you get to meet pilots from the other fleet groups?

It is a pity there are no 380 services from Perth, so just trying to see how I go about meeting the pilot (but I have a while to organise that)

 

[oz_mark]

Loss of oxygen..something dear to my heart. We have quick donning masks that are totally different to the system in the cabin (A320 aircraft pilots Oxygen Mask - YouTube). These seal tightly, and will provide oxygen under pressure if needed. The crew oxygen supply is also from a different system to the passengers. Pax systems vary amongst aircraft types. Some, like the 747 and 380, rely on a large number (10 plus) of bottles in which the oxygen is stored at around 1800 psi. This sort of system is always used for the crew, but from separate bottles (normally 2). Aircraft like the 767 use a chemical generator system, in which there is a generator mounted above each group of seats, which normally serves 3-4 people. Gaseous systems can provide enough oxygen for hours, whilst the chemical generators last from about 12 to 20 minutes.

Does this affect where the aircraft can go? Like would 20 minutes be enough if you were over the Himalayas, say?

 

[rechoboam]

Its actually 09 thats modified at MEB/MEL, not 16 as I originally posted (and now edited). It was a little bit of trivia I picked up working in both towers! MEL 34 has the running rabbit thanks to MEB and the odd attempt to land at the wrong airport! I would have to check the charts but I believe its also changed where there are multiple parallel runways, such as LAX with 06 & 07 L&R.

When I was a kid in about 1980 I am pretty sure I remember a heavy jet landing at Essendon and only realizing their mistake on trying to taxi. Does anyone recall this??

 

[Mwenenzi]

When I was a kid in about 1980 I am pretty sure I remember a heavy jet landing at Essendon and only realizing their mistake on trying to taxi. Does anyone recall this??

The question is off topic for this thread, but several have tried to land as here: Jumbos Tried To Land At Essendon - Report

 

[jb747]

I know there are a lot of pilots in the QF group, but how well or how often do you get to meet pilots from the other fleet groups?

A lot of my friends (from the military) fly other types within mainline. You very occasionally run into somebody at the office in Sydney, an even more occasionally down the road. Even when on the same type, you don't meet people often. The percentage of the guys in any given place at one time is pretty low.

 

[jb747]

Does this affect where the aircraft can go? Like would 20 minutes be enough if you were over the Himalayas, say?

Yes. Routes are required to be planned within the oxygen capabilities of the aircraft. Generator systems are quite limiting in some areas of high terrain, and the aircraft may have special 'escape' tracks that they need to fly, or they may not even be allowed to fly there.

 

[harvyk]

How much effort is required to adjust the throttle levers. I've heard it be likened to trying to push cinder blocks (in other words they're really heavy), would that be an accurate?

 

[jb747]

How much effort is required to adjust the throttle levers. I've heard it be likened to trying to push cinder blocks (in other words they're really heavy), would that be an accurate?

I don't know that I'd describe them as really heavy, but they certainly aren't light. Smaller aircraft often have a throttle friction adjustment, so that you can set it to taste.

On the 380...if the autothrust is working they are left in the gates (normally climb), and the autothrust is left engaged at all times. But, in the 747/767 it was normal to control the thrust manually if you had the autopilot disengaged. The technique isn't one of shoving them up and down...normally the changes are made by wriggling the levers left and right, so that the increments are both balanced, and quite small. Too much thrust lever movement has a very destabilising effect on approach, especially in the 767 (where power changes are associated with quite large pitch changes).

 

[Flying Fox]

The technique isn't one of shoving them up and down...normally the changes are made by wriggling the levers left and right, so that the increments are both balanced, and quite small. Too much thrust lever movement has a very destabilising effect on approach, especially in the 767 (where power changes are associated with quite large pitch changes).

Is this different for a jet fighter? That is, is all that stuff on TopGun type films (thrust being jammed forwards and backwards) just BS?