Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

I flew out of JFK last week and we took off from 4L on a BA 747. It appeared that we used full flaps for the take off, as there were at least 3 steps to full retract them rather than the usual 2. After turning right and heading a fair way out to sea thrust was increased and we picked up speed. I am assuming this configuration and take-off plan was for noise abatement - would I be correct? Any idea?

There's always a couple of choices of take off flap available. More flap will give a shorter run, but worse overall climb gradient, whilst less flap gives a better gradient but longer take off roll. In the A380 we can use 1(+F), 2, and 3 for take off, and all are reqularly used.

On your 747 departure, you would most likely have used flap 20, which is the usual take off setting. Full flap is 30, and it is never used for take off. Nor is 25. If I recall correctly, the settings are 0, 1, 5, 10, 20, 25, 30...so a multi stage retraction is quite normal.

Picking thrust changes, and the reasons for them, from the cabin is a difficult exercise. You would have taken off at a derate, that would have been held until the clean up height at which point the thrust would have change to one of the climb thrust modes. Out of JFK there are multiple inbound traffic lanes to be avoided, and they would have constrained the climb. Speed is limited to 250kias. All sounds like a normal day.

 

[jb747]

How so true..When I did my PPL in the 70's when I lived in the Isa, the training instructors(several by the way were QANTAS cadets) always banged on about trim. When I eventually went onto instrument training, I recall my instructor(ummm Geoff Markwell QANTAS??) said, "now you see why trim is so important, if correctly trimmed, you are no longer fighting for control and it gives you time to think ahead of the aircraft.

I suppose JB, there are no more QANTAS cadets learning their trade on air charters and training, prior to piloting the large aircraft. Great grounding for airman ship that books don't provide.

Cadets of that era were pushed out into GA..so they never learnt their trade in a big aircraft.

 

[jb747]

The tracks have not really changed for a long time and are essentially Navaid ie Bindook direct to SYD where on approach to Sydney the aircraft joins the circuit. This has nothing to do with politicians and their locale and everything to do with backups, having aircraft on defined airways when control reverts to procedural is a good thing.

I had an RAN ATC controller friend who had a t-shirt that read "Help ATC stamp out aircraft".

 

[jb747]

So I guess the question is, these 200 hour co-pilots coming through, do you have any idea as to what their skills might have been prior to actually stepping into a coughpit? Do you know how detailed their basic flying techniques actually are? Or is it simply a case of "press this button to start the plane, press this button to stop it, press this button to make the plane follow the pre-determined course".

I have the pleasure of not flying with them.

 

[harvyk]

I have the pleasure of not flying with them.

Good answer

 

[day-heg]

So I guess the question is, these 200 hour co-pilots coming through, do you have any idea as to what their skills might have been prior to actually stepping into a coughpit? Do you know how detailed their basic flying techniques actually are? Or is it simply a case of "press this button to start the plane, press this button to stop it, press this button to make the plane follow the pre-determined course".

Just some thoughts that may be of interest to some - apologies if it strays a little off topic..

I am training to be one of these 200 hr pilots. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have a job in the right hand seat of an A320 or 737 - although in Europe, so most of you reading will be safe! Do I think it's the perfect way to get the job I've always dreamed of... no. Of course I'd prefer to have built up 1500 hours of experience in single engined aircraft over the years, and gotten my qualifications in stages. But reality bites and it seems that this is the way the industry is moving. Many carriers are now employing low hour pilots into jets... BA, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Australia (onto the ATR fleet) Flybe, EasyJet, Ryanair, Monarch, Thompson, Jet2, Lufthansa, JetStar, Dragon Air, Cathay Pacific to name just a few.

For me, a combination of many factors meant that I wasn't in a position to pursue this long held ambition for many years, and when everything fell into place, it was the best way for me to proceed. There is apparently a pilot shortage around the world - and I've been told this by people with no agenda so I do believe it to be true - although clearly the levels or shortage vary in different regions of the world.

I can assure you that our training is far more comprehensive than you suggest (button pressing) but of course I concede that it can only be so thorough within the 200 odd hours we fly in training. When will I consider myself experienced... not for many years. But we do train the basics, (stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, engine failures, forced landings, visual navigation, etc) with a fully integrated practice of threat and error management from the outset. And of course part of the groundschool training is studying the human and technological factors behind many accidents in the past. And remember that we still need to pass CPL tests and instrument rating tests to get anywhere near a jet, and in the future, will have to pass the same line and rating sim tests every 6 months as any other pilot on the line.

With the focus on AF447 there will, hopefully, never be a similar disaster, but as JB has said, the "it will never happen" logic cannot be be 100% idiot-proof. If the FO in the recent Lufthansa issue had been a cadet 6 months out of of school, he or she would have had to rely much more heavily on the Captain - you cant buy experience.

But hypothetically, how differently in that situation would a 2000hr pilot have fared if those 2000 hours came from flying a Cessna around the outback for 5 years? Or even a small twin engined passenger aircraft with no autopilot, and steam driven instruments, ie a world away from the tech in a A320?

 

[Major]

Just some thoughts that may be of interest to some - apologies if it strays a little off topic..

I am training to be one of these 200 hr pilots. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have a job in the right hand seat of an A320 or 737 - although in Europe, so most of you reading will be safe! Do I think it's the perfect way to get the job I've always dreamed of... no. Of course I'd prefer to have built up 1500 hours of experience in single engined aircraft over the years, and gotten my qualifications in stages. But reality bites and it seems that this is the way the industry is moving. Many carriers are now employing low hour pilots into jets... BA, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Australia (onto the ATR fleet) Flybe, EasyJet, Ryanair, Monarch, Thompson, Jet2, Lufthansa, JetStar, Dragon Air, Cathay Pacific to name just a few.

For me, a combination of many factors meant that I wasn't in a position to pursue this long held ambition for many years, and when everything fell into place, it was the best way for me to proceed. There is apparently a pilot shortage around the world - and I've been told this by people with no agenda so I do believe it to be true - although clearly the levels or shortage vary in different regions of the world.

I can assure you that our training is far more comprehensive than you suggest (button pressing) but of course I concede that it can only be so thorough within the 200 odd hours we fly in training. When will I consider myself experienced... not for many years. But we do train the basics, (stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, engine failures, forced landings, visual navigation, etc) with a fully integrated practice of threat and error management from the outset. And of course part of the groundschool training is studying the human and technological factors behind many accidents in the past. And remember that we still need to pass CPL tests and instrument rating tests to get anywhere near a jet, and in the future, will have to pass the same line and rating sim tests every 6 months as any other pilot on the line.

With the focus on AF447 there will, hopefully, never be a similar disaster, but as JB has said, the "it will never happen" logic cannot be be 100% idiot-proof. If the FO in the recent Lufthansa issue had been a cadet 6 months out of of school, he or she would have had to rely much more heavily on the Captain - you cant buy experience.

But hypothetically, how differently in that situation would a 2000hr pilot have fared if those 2000 hours came from flying a Cessna around the outback for 5 years? Or even a small twin engined passenger aircraft with no autopilot, and steam driven instruments, ie a world away from the tech in a A320?

What type of aircraft do you physically fly during your training ?

 

[day-heg]

What type of aircraft do you physically fly during your training ?

Cessna 172 for single engine, Diamond DA42 for multi engine, plus Slingsby Firefly for upset prevention & recovery training

 

[harvyk]

Just some thoughts that may be of interest to some - apologies if it strays a little off topic..

I am training to be one of these 200 hr pilots. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have a job in the right hand seat of an A320 or 737 - although in Europe, so most of you reading will be safe! Do I think it's the perfect way to get the job I've always dreamed of... no. Of course I'd prefer to have built up 1500 hours of experience in single engined aircraft over the years, and gotten my qualifications in stages. But reality bites and it seems that this is the way the industry is moving. Many carriers are now employing low hour pilots into jets... BA, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Australia (onto the ATR fleet) Flybe, EasyJet, Ryanair, Monarch, Thompson, Jet2, Lufthansa, JetStar, Dragon Air, Cathay Pacific to name just a few.

For me, a combination of many factors meant that I wasn't in a position to pursue this long held ambition for many years, and when everything fell into place, it was the best way for me to proceed. There is apparently a pilot shortage around the world - and I've been told this by people with no agenda so I do believe it to be true - although clearly the levels or shortage vary in different regions of the world.

I can assure you that our training is far more comprehensive than you suggest (button pressing) but of course I concede that it can only be so thorough within the 200 odd hours we fly in training. When will I consider myself experienced... not for many years. But we do train the basics, (stall recovery, spiral dive recovery, engine failures, forced landings, visual navigation, etc) with a fully integrated practice of threat and error management from the outset. And of course part of the groundschool training is studying the human and technological factors behind many accidents in the past. And remember that we still need to pass CPL tests and instrument rating tests to get anywhere near a jet, and in the future, will have to pass the same line and rating sim tests every 6 months as any other pilot on the line.

With the focus on AF447 there will, hopefully, never be a similar disaster, but as JB has said, the "it will never happen" logic cannot be be 100% idiot-proof. If the FO in the recent Lufthansa issue had been a cadet 6 months out of of school, he or she would have had to rely much more heavily on the Captain - you cant buy experience.

But hypothetically, how differently in that situation would a 2000hr pilot have fared if those 2000 hours came from flying a Cessna around the outback for 5 years? Or even a small twin engined passenger aircraft with no autopilot, and steam driven instruments, ie a world away from the tech in a A320?

What was your flying experience before you started your training and how are you finding the course itself? Also this this something which is sponsored by an airline, or is this a "fast-track" type course which you then go and find a job afterwards?

 

[day-heg]

What was your flying experience before you started your training and how are you finding the course itself? Also this this something which is sponsored by an airline, or is this a "fast-track" type course which you then go and find a job afterwards?

Flying experience was about 25 hrs air experience flying/gliding when I was in the air cadets, but that was the better part of 20 years ago, so of little relevance today. Course is intense and challenging as you might expect, but fun and very interesting nonetheless. I'm not sponsored but at the end of it, hopefully if my results & reports are good enough, the training company should help me find work.

 

[cambriamarsh]

Flying experience was about 25 hrs air experience flying/gliding when I was in the air cadets, but that was the better part of 20 years ago, so of little relevance today. Course is intense and challenging as you might expect, but fun and very interesting nonetheless. I'm not sponsored but at the end of it, hopefully if my results & reports are good enough, the training company should help me find work.

I'm not a pilot and am too old too go down this route but I appreciate you sharing your experiences. I'd also be interested in JBs thoughts as to the best approach to training pilots in light of the demand for them and the reduction in supply ex the military (assuming that is correct).

Cheers

 

[mjt57]

Well, as long as Qantas continues to employ experienced pilots then this article will be repeated over the years...

Setting 'extraordinary records of firsts': Qantas named world's safest airline

JB, you and your colleagues should be satisfied with this.

 

[get me outta here]

Not to forget the need for very timely and professional maintenance.

Well, as long as Qantas continues to employ experienced pilots then this article will be repeated over the years...

Setting 'extraordinary records of firsts': Qantas named world's safest airline

JB, you and your colleagues should be satisfied with this.

 

[datal1]

A question for anybody who has trained and become a piliot or is in the process (day-heg?)

I'm at a cross roads and looking at a possible career/life change. I'm 23 with a bacholer's degree and I own 2 small business's....but quickly realising chasing $$ is not all its made out to be. Since a child I've been into aviation and wanted to be a pilot, I considered it in year 10 but ended up choosing school subjects tailored to a business career rather than flying. As such I only did the minimum required maths subject in school which I know straight out doesn't fit Qantas pilot criteria.


I don't have any experience. The end goal is to fly long haul, ideally with Qantas as I want to be based in Aus. Are there other carriers that would let me be based out of Melb (or other capital cities, I don't mind the commute). My guess is that I'd start on a domestic route or even regional and move up over the years to long haul from there?

Also, I've tried researching but I can't find out what the story is in regards to eye sight. I have glasses, one eye doesn't need much correction however my right eye has an astigmatism and they can't correct to 20/20....am I stuffed from the beginning or is this possible?

Where to start from here if I wanted to go down this route?

 

[straitman]

A question for anybody who has trained and become a piliot or is in the process (day-heg?)

I'm at a cross roads and looking at a possible career/life change. I'm 23 with a bacholer's degree and I own 2 small business's....but quickly realising chasing $$ is not all its made out to be. Since a child I've been into aviation and wanted to be a pilot, I considered it in year 10 but ended up choosing school subjects tailored to a business career rather than flying. As such I only did the minimum required maths subject in school which I know straight out doesn't fit Qantas pilot criteria.


I don't have any experience. The end goal is to fly long haul, ideally with Qantas as I want to be based in Aus. Are there other carriers that would let me be based out of Melb (or other capital cities, I don't mind the commute). My guess is that I'd start on a domestic route or even regional and move up over the years to long haul from there?

Also, I've tried researching but I can't find out what the story is in regards to eye sight. I have glasses, one eye doesn't need much correction however my right eye has an astigmatism and they can't correct to 20/20....am I stuffed from the beginning or is this possible?

Where to start from here if I wanted to go down this route?

There are many people out there trying to get the few good jobs that are available so you have to do what ever is needed to make yourself look more attractive to an employer than the next person. i.e. do some more maths if that is what it takes.

Re your eyesight I suspect you are stymied. I'm pretty sure, without having researched, that 6:6 vision is a requirement. (corrected or uncorrected) Look at the CASA web site and look at the medical requirements for an ATPL not just for a private or Commercial. Ask you Dr if he knows a DAME (Designated Aviation Medical Examiner) who may be able to help you with that one.

One last comment and I know jb will agree is that long haul flying is not for everyone. The constant changing of time zones and need to adjust sleep patterns is not something that everyone can suitable adapt to. I have a friend who took early retirement from Cathay as the sleep issues were literally killing him. One year after he left the job he was at our house and got up one morning and was excited that he managed to get 6hrs sleep straight. The other consideration on that is also the time away from home and the constant roster issues that occur.

 

[jb747]

Not to forget the need for very timely and professional maintenance.

I would prefer not to have this thread turn into something that is too QF specific...there are other places for that. But, there is nothing wrong with the maintenance... Yet another avenue for media beat up.

 

[jb747]

Well, as long as Qantas continues to employ experienced pilots then this article will be repeated over the years...

Setting 'extraordinary records of firsts': Qantas named world's safest airline

JB, you and your colleagues should be satisfied with this.

Something like that is pleasing, but I doubt that it actually translates to too many bums on seats.

 

[Shan Man]

Something like that is pleasing, but I doubt that it actually translates to too many bums on seats.

Rain Man is an avid fan of the record you help achieve JB.

 

[markis10]

Rain Man is an avid fan of the record you help achieve JB.

Of course Hollywood did get it wrong on that score claiming Qantas had never crashed.

 

[day-heg]

A question for anybody who has trained and become a piliot or is in the process (day-heg?)

I'm at a cross roads and looking at a possible career/life change. I'm 23 with a bacholer's degree and I own 2 small business's....but quickly realising chasing $$ is not all its made out to be. Since a child I've been into aviation and wanted to be a pilot, I considered it in year 10 but ended up choosing school subjects tailored to a business career rather than flying. As such I only did the minimum required maths subject in school which I know straight out doesn't fit Qantas pilot criteria.


I don't have any experience. The end goal is to fly long haul, ideally with Qantas as I want to be based in Aus. Are there other carriers that would let me be based out of Melb (or other capital cities, I don't mind the commute). My guess is that I'd start on a domestic route or even regional and move up over the years to long haul from there?

Also, I've tried researching but I can't find out what the story is in regards to eye sight. I have glasses, one eye doesn't need much correction however my right eye has an astigmatism and they can't correct to 20/20....am I stuffed from the beginning or is this possible?

Where to start from here if I wanted to go down this route?

The most prized possession of any commercial pilot is a Class 1 medical (which includes sight) - without that you can't go much further. So as Straitman says, if you are serious about pursuing this and you have concerns about your eyesight, then that needs to be the first port of call. If you pass the medical, then focus on matching your skills and experience to what potential employers are looking for - if that means extra work/qualifications, then do it.

As you say, you won't be able to go straight into a long haul with many (any) operators, so expect to have to work your way up potentially through turbo-props, then narrow-body jets etc etc. If you are determined to stay in Australia, I guess you'll find your options pretty limited, as both VA & QF/JQ are pretty much closed door at them moment, from what I understand. They may take experienced pilots in the future (VA did for their ATR fleet a couple of years ago), but you'd need to have a CPL, IR, potentially passes in the ATPL exams and probably 2500hrs + to be in with a chance. This means building your hours and experience after you've got your CPL with tourist/parachute flights, flying out in the bush, etc etc.

If you have/can get a European passport and are prepared to live overseas for a good few years, then I reckon you'll find your options open up quite a bit. (ie follow the same sort of path as I am through one of many training companies).

Good luck.