Ask The Pilot

[mikenz]

When on the ground, e.g. lining up to take-off, how do aircraft keep the right amount of seperation? Are there any set rules on how close you can get to the aircraft in front of you? Or is it just a case of common sense?

 

[Boris spatsky]

When on the ground, e.g. lining up to take-off, how do aircraft keep the right amount of seperation? Are there any set rules on how close you can get to the aircraft in front of you? Or is it just a case of common sense?

I am not clear as to whether your question is asking about distance from another aircraft during taxi, or distance between aircraft taking off??

There are published distances that you should remain behind an aircraft in front during taxi, which vary depending on whether it is a jet, and whether or not it is stationary or moving (stationary requiring further distance due to the higher thrust level required and subsequent higher jet blast from a stationary position).

It's judgement - there is no real way to accurately measure it.

As for takeoff, separation between aircraft is controlled by ATC at a controlled aerodrome and depends on flow (separation from preceding departure), wake turbulence (varies depending on how large each aircraft is) and other factors.

At non-controlled aerodromes there are published rules about how close you can get to another aircraft during take-off or landing but generally common sense is the over-riding factor.

 

[jb747]

When on the ground, e.g. lining up to take-off, how do aircraft keep the right amount of seperation? Are there any set rules on how close you can get to the aircraft in front of you? Or is it just a case of common sense?

I presume you mean when taxiing along behind someone..in which case there aren't any particular rules, other than don't hit him. Any declared distances are meaningless, as there is no way to measure them. Mostly people keep well clear, so as not to start sucking in the previous aircraft exhaust...which doesn't smell very nice. When passing an aircraft that has turned into another taxiway, on to the apron or runway, there are clearance lines that you both have to to be clear of to ensure enough room is available. Passing an aircraft that isn't over the line will give you the result that United got in Melbourne when they managed to hit a 767 (or the near miss I recently saw with AI and an ATR).

If anything though, pilots do have a habit of stopping too far back (from other aircraft, and the holding points), which can have the flow on effect of unnecessarily blocking other aircraft from passing behind. Lining up on the runway is controlled by ATC, but taking Heathrow as an example, they want you to move, and get as close as possible, with the only constraint being keeping out of the blast zone. That maximises their ability to use the runway.

Some particular airlines you do keep as far away from as possible. Same as the roads I guess.

 

[mikenz]

I am not clear as to whether your question is asking about distance from another aircraft during taxi, or distance between aircraft taking off??

Thanks Boris, my question was for during taxi. I'm guessing this would be a little harder at night time.

 

[welltravelled]

Sadly the least common thing in aviation, as in most sectors these days is common sense.
There are minimum separation standards applied for take off, departure, en route, approach and landing.
Depending on how the aircraft is being controlled determines the minimum separation standard, eg radar, vs procedural, etc
On the ground there is a minimum distance from aircraft stipulated in the regulations which the pilot must apply whilst taxiing.
From take off onwards - this is determined by the wake turbulence category of the aircraft ahead and behind, and in locations like Sydney probably the number of movements per hour may come into, but I am not privy to any info on that.
So if you had an A380 departing, and a B737 to take behind this, then because the 380 is in the "Super" wake turbulence category then there is a time/distance applied by the controllers {and pilots} to ensure that the second aircraft does not get caught up in the wake turbulence of the preceeding.
There was an accident at LAX about 25 years ago when a Westwind {corporate jet} crashed on approach as a result of flying too close behind a B757. As a result of this accident, the B757, whilst not falling into the heavy category by definition ie Aircraft weight, it is branded a heavy because of its wake turbulence. {I was flying these at the time so took particular interest!}

Hope this helps?

 

[Quickstatus]

Some particular airlines you do keep as far away from as possible. Same as the roads I guess.

Except road users are not distinctive by their brand unless the type of car allocates them. All road users are presumed to be maniacs..

 

[Quickstatus]

Anyway, the passengers will get to decide. So far it seems that they prefer cheap.

And in the decision between cheap and cheerful vs cheap and nasty, the nasty will get picked if its cheaper than cheerful

 

[mjt57]

Just read the news article in the paper about the problem with Qantas assigning noisy hotels. Given that it's in the news I'm guessing that it's sort of half right. If so, it must really be a pain to find a hotel that's noisy.

Would it be easier for the crew to arrange their own accomodation then claim it back?

 

[Himeno]

Just read the news article in the paper about the problem with Qantas assigning noisy hotels. Given that it's in the news I'm guessing that it's sort of half right. If so, it must really be a pain to find a hotel that's noisy.

Would it be easier for the crew to arrange their own accomodation then claim it back?

I saw the article as well, just read another with a bit more detail.
I have some friends who live/work in the area and others who have attended events at Anaheim Convention Centre. Have asked them if it is really as loud as the article suggests.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Passing an aircraft that isn't over the line will give you the result that United got in Melbourne when they managed to hit a 767

Interesting read here regarding a ground collision: Accident: Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints

 

[AVC]

I'd probably be more inclined to go for something really alcoholic than go to the coughpit if ever the call of "can anyone fly a plane" come over the PA.

I can't resist...
Hopefully the fun police aren't watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaxiv6b09Ko

JB vs Boris.
mjt is the guy in the pilot uniform...

 

[jb747]

I saw the article as well, just read another with a bit more detail.
I have some friends who live/work in the area and others who have attended events at Anaheim Convention Centre. Have asked them if it is really as loud as the article suggests.

Actually that strikes me as exactly how we end up with unsuitable hotels in the first place. Unless your friends happen to work at night, and need their sleep during the day (i.e., they're vampires), then they'll likely have little concept of just how unsuitable any hotel can be.

I'm sure the airlines don't go wandering around looking for the worst hotel that they can find, but sometimes they hit the jackpot.

 

[moa999]

I suspect any hotel can be unsuitable with the wrong neighbors, but agree a pet friendly hotel near child attractions and regular fireworks doesn't sound great for those working off the clock

 

[jb747]

I suspect any hotel can be unsuitable with the wrong neighbors, but agree a pet friendly hotel near child attractions and regular fireworks doesn't sound great for those working off the clock

Let's list some of the delights.

Coffee shop is rarely open when we actually need, it and generally has a queue that is very long.
Room service has restricted hours.
Window frames expand and make a LOT of noise when they heat up in the sun.
Queue to use the lifts regularly lasts 20 minutes or so. Used as a rubbish dumpster by some!
People regularly have their phone conversations in the hallway, presumably so they won't upset whoever they share their room with.
Large numbers of children, of all ages.
Conventions...every facility, not just in the hotel, but the area, will be packed solid. Restaurant...should have booked last week. Room service...see above.
Noise from conventions can be extreme. Noise in general is bad.
'High speed internet'...speed tests at less the 3 m/s.

This is easily the worst place I have stayed in 30 years of flying around the world. There is nothing positive.

 

[Himeno]

Actually that strikes me as exactly how we end up with unsuitable hotels in the first place. Unless your friends happen to work at night, and need their sleep during the day (i.e., they're vampires), then they'll likely have little concept of just how unsuitable any hotel can be.

I would say some of them are. They are often up all night working on stuff.

 

[Himeno]

This is easily the worst place I have stayed in 30 years of flying around the world. There is nothing positive.

How does this current LA hotel compare the the last one?

 

[Princess Fiona]

Let's list some of the delights.

Coffee shop is rarely open when we actually need, it and generally has a queue that is very long.
Room service has restricted hours.
Window frames expand and make a LOT of noise when they heat up in the sun.
Queue to use the lifts regularly lasts 20 minutes or so. Used as a rubbish dumpster by some!
People regularly have their phone conversations in the hallway, presumably so they won't upset whoever they share their room with.
Large numbers of children, of all ages.
Conventions...every facility, not just in the hotel, but the area, will be packed solid. Restaurant...should have booked last week. Room service...see above.
Noise from conventions can be extreme. Noise in general is bad.
'High speed internet'...speed tests at less the 3 m/s.

This is easily the worst place I have stayed in 30 years of flying around the world. There is nothing positive.

Ok, that bad !!!

 

[coriander]

Mrs C and I were fortunate enough to be shown over the coughpit on arrival when we flew to LAX this January; we talked about hotels and I expressed surprised at the choice of location of Anaheim - "not good" was the only terse comment from one of the flight deck crew. That article and jb's comment amplify that succinct statement!

 

[Julesmac]

In years past Cathay and Dragon were prime choices for Australian pilots (in particular ex military) who did not want to work for QF et al. Now those people go to Emirates and their ilk. There's probably a residual group from '89, but they'd mostly be retired (or very close to) by now. Ansett people presumably ended up all over the place...there are many in QF and Jetstar. There are also many QF pilots on "leave without pay" flying in the area too.

JB What do you mean? Do they take leave from QF and rock up to do some casual part time work elsewhere?? So they can earn a bit of dosh on the side??Is this legal? How would they manage it?

 

[QF WP]

Thinking about my neighbour, the VA check captain, he has flown (all same day returns):

Wed: BNE/ZQN return
Thu: BNE/WLG return
Fri (today): BNE/ZQN return
Sat: BNE/ZQN return

Sure this is short/medium haul, but he looked tired this morning (even after he landed at 4pm and was early to bed). Are VA flying hours the same as QF?

He mentioned that landing in ZQN on Wed, the crosswind was 25 knots (maximum) with cloud well into final approach. He (and plenty more I'd think) find the landing one of the hardest with runway shorter than even Hamilton Island.