Ask The Pilot

[eric2011]

I was on a Dash 8 taxiing after landing at Sydney that made a sudden stop (emergency?) to avoid a catering truck that crossed in front near t3. I was amazed how quickly the plane stopped. I'd reckon that an unbelted passenger would have been thrown against the seat in front.

There are many people who, when landed and turned off onto the taxi way, undo the seat belt. Unfortunately I am one of them. Usually I do it so I can put my shoes back on and gather up my belongings. Maybe I should re-think my actions. This is one of the incidents we don't always think about.

 

[por930]

There are many people who, when landed and turned off onto the taxi way, undo the seat belt. Unfortunately I am one of them. Usually I do it so I can put my shoes back on and gather up my belongings. Maybe I should re-think my actions. This is one of the incidents we don't always think about.

As soon as descent is announced/felt, you should always put on your shoes, and gather your belongings. If something goes wrong on the ground, you would not want to waste time looking for shoes if you needed to get out urgently.

 

[yohy?!]

There are many people who, when landed and turned off onto the taxi way, undo the seat belt. Unfortunately I am one of them. Usually I do it so I can put my shoes back on and gather up my belongings. Maybe I should re-think my actions. This is one of the incidents we don't always think about.

This always bugs me especially when people wear their seat belt only for touchdown - effectively making themselves a projectile and a casualty in any hard braking manoeuvre (and at any time in the air during turbulence)

 

[por930]

I think that this warning was in relation to a system designed to prevent runway overruns...which we don't have, so I don't know the details.

In our operation, we'll have a look at the landing data on the OIT (the laptops). Using the 'dispatch' module, and the actual conditions, gives a runway length requirement of about 2450 metres. That includes a very large margin...but still gives around 500 metres excess. Using the 'flight' module uses less margin, and gives much more spare. Obviously the runway was perfectly acceptable.

Our FMCs don't get into the act, other than providing the navigation, laterally and vertically. The performance/approach page will have our selections of flap and approach speed, and will also include the ATIS data. It doesn't do any runway length calculations.

I presume that the overrun system has the ability to dynamically monitor the performance...so that it can take into account excess airspeed, or adverse wind. Otherwise it would have little value.

As for the response..the first go around would be in accordance with the SOP. After that, having looked at the OIT again, and being aware that it's a normal runway used every day...I'd land and u/s the system. I expect that when I'm replaced by a robot, that it will continue to go around until the fuel state becomes an emergency, at which point that would leap to the top of the priority list and allow a landing.

A bit more digging and I found that Manchester was in the middle of a strong gusty southerly storm, with driving rain. A pprune forum A380 pilot said the A380 was probably equipped with the BTV ROW/ROP system and you may get a "runway too short" warning. He also advised, "Trouble is, even if it is a glitch in the system, a Go Around is mandatory, and so on until diversion follows!!!". SOP does not allow you to say "it's wrong, ignore it".

I guess JB, if your company do not have the runway overrun equipment in the A380, it is left more to your skill to determine if the runway length is sufficient, considering the circumstances.

 

[Awesom Andy]

SOP does not allow you to say "it's wrong, ignore it".

But we all know what happens if that's been done just once too many, right?

 

[jb747]

I was on a Dash 8 taxiing after landing at Sydney that made a sudden stop (emergency?) to avoid a catering truck that crossed in front near t3. I was amazed how quickly the plane stopped. I'd reckon that an unbelted passenger would have been thrown against the seat in front.

Sudden stops aren't at all uncommon.

The most common cause, in places like the USA, is vehicles wandering too close. In Oz I've had a luggage vehicle drive in front of me...leaving a trail of luggage behind it (Ansett). In recent times, a bus crossed in front at LA (I guess he thought the 380 was a building, and a ute drove right in front of the bay as we were turning on to it. Movement of the bridge or anything crossing the obstruction line as we are closing in on the stop point is also reason for a sudden stop.

In these stops cabin crew are almost always dropped to the floor, and occasionally hurt. Any passenger foolish enough to stand will also be down there...

 

[jb747]

But we all know what happens if that's been done just once too many, right?

The first time, you most certainly should not ignore it. But, any system can give false warnings, and eventually you must ignore it. Even the ECAM allows messages to be declared a nuisance and cancelled.

 

[harvyk]

The first time, you most certainly should not ignore it. But, any system can give false warnings, and eventually you must ignore it. Even the ECAM allows messages to be declared a nuisance and cancelled.

If you decide that a warning is likely false is there any procedure you would then follow to acknowledge the warning (eg gripe sheet). When you cancel a warning on ECAM, does that cancel all warning or just the single warning which is a nuisance?

Also does the 747's EICAS system allow you to cancel individual warnings? I thought it would simply clear the page of warnings (effectively a "next page" button) which could be recalled at any time, and the warning could reappear if the sensors told it to.

 

[docjames]

Is there a "mandatory" time where the safety instructions / demonstrations are given? What requirements go into when this is done?

It seems that at times where there are extended delays eg. last week waiting for an engineering (fuel) issue to be resolved prior to a domestic departure (I'm thinking it was 30-40mins after schedule we then departed), it would have made sense (sort-of!) to show the video once all pax were confirmed on board and we were idly waiting for departure rather than doing it with the aircraft moving, crew wobbling around and rushing to the runway (we turned onto runway virtually immediately after the demo finsihed and the crew sat down - no idea if this caused any minor delay in takeoff). Although i'm not 100% sure when the front door was closed and I assume that's a requirement for screening the safety briefing? I assume crew duties whilst on the ground come into it (CSM is still coordinating things and doesn't have time for the safety demo etc).

Additionally, if there is a delay / return to gate (even if no pax deplane), does the demo have to be re-screened? Again I recall we had an aborted takeoff on QF9 (744 to HKG) many years ago and had a 2hr ground delay while something was inspected / repaired on one of the engine / "air conditioning" units. And we returned to gate for about 2 hours, then the demo was re-screened prior to departure.

Thanks for any insights into the requirements (CASA/regulatory/company policies) around safety demos.


(Incidentally I had one flight with a "major" airline in Sth America where the safety video fired into life after takeoff (on climb out!) - having not been shown prior to departure! I assumed that was an A-grade stuff up as all other flights with this carrier the video was shown in the usual manner!)

 

[jb747]

If you decide that a warning is likely false is there any procedure you would then follow to acknowledge the warning (eg gripe sheet). When you cancel a warning on ECAM, does that cancel all warning or just the single warning which is a nuisance?

Also does the 747's EICAS system allow you to cancel individual warnings? I thought it would simply clear the page of warnings (effectively a "next page" button) which could be recalled at any time, and the warning could reappear if the sensors told it to.

Anything that you consider to be malfunctioning will be entered into the tech log. Sometimes we'll need to take it further (back to the technical people in Sydney) where a system seems to be functioning as designed but the result is still in question. They can take it up with Airbus.

Using the Emergency Cancel button on the ECAM cancels that warning, or any repeat of it, for the rest of the flight. If you just 'tick' the procedure off, it may recur as soon as the conditions are detected again...cancel won't allow that. It only affects the warning that was on display at the top of the list. There's not an equivalent in the 747.

If the whatever tripped the ECAM disappears whilst you are carrying out a procedure, then the ECAM also instantly vanishes.

 

[jb747]

Is there a "mandatory" time where the safety instructions / demonstrations are given? What requirements go into when this is done?

It seems that at times where there are extended delays eg. last week waiting for an engineering (fuel) issue to be resolved prior to a domestic departure (I'm thinking it was 30-40mins after schedule we then departed), it would have made sense (sort-of!) to show the video once all pax were confirmed on board and we were idly waiting for departure rather than doing it with the aircraft moving, crew wobbling around and rushing to the runway (we turned onto runway virtually immediately after the demo finsihed and the crew sat down - no idea if this caused any minor delay in takeoff). Although i'm not 100% sure when the front door was closed and I assume that's a requirement for screening the safety briefing? I assume crew duties whilst on the ground come into it (CSM is still coordinating things and doesn't have time for the safety demo etc).

The doors won't all be closed until all of the passengers are seated. As you had a technical issue, then the engineers would have needed to come to the coughpit, if only to finalise the tech log.

The safety briefing won't happen until all of the doors are armed. They'll stick to the procedure...arm the doors on push, safety brief. Changing the sequence runs a very high risk of having someone in a different chapter, and ending up with doors armed when they shouldn't be or vice versa.

Additionally, if there is a delay / return to gate (even if no pax deplane), does the demo have to be re-screened? Again I recall we had an aborted takeoff on QF9 (744 to HKG) many years ago and had a 2hr ground delay while something was inspected / repaired on one of the engine / "air conditioning" units. And we returned to gate for about 2 hours, then the demo was re-screened prior to departure.

Very short delay, no. But anything longer than a few minutes yep. Anyway, some of those who read their newspaper the first time might have finished by then.

We ensure (procedures differ across the aircraft types) that the cabin crew have finished before we enter the runway. It is sometimes a cause of momentary delay...just the way it is.

 

[defurax]

One thing that I don't understand about safety video/audio on all airlines I have flown with is that they are played once all passengers are already seated and all overhead bins are closed, so why always instruct passengers to put their cabin baggage under the seat in front or in the overhead compartment when this has already been completed 10 minutes ago? Do regulatory agencies staff ever listen to the safety briefings? Maybe they would realise something is inconsistent...

 

[Boris spatsky]

One thing that I don't understand about safety video/audio on all airlines I have flown with is that they are played once all passengers are already seated and all overhead bins are closed, so why always instruct passengers to put their cabin baggage under the seat in front or in the overhead compartment when this has already been completed 10 minutes ago? Do regulatory agencies staff ever listen to the safety briefings? Maybe they would realise something is inconsistent...

Alot of the verbage in the briefs is mandated by the regulator - so we just go with it because we have to!

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Some years back there used to be a short version and a long version of the safety briefing. The short version was typically used when taxiing from Gates 9 - 11 at the QF Domestic terminal to RWY16R at YSSY.

Had an interesting scenario last week on a QF Jet Connect 737 from AKL-SYD. The aircraft landed on 34L and extended it's landing roll to taxiway G and then taxied straight to Gate 37. It was less than 30 seconds from the time we turned off RWY34L until we pulled up at Gate 37. Everyone was requested to remain in their seats for an extended period of time until the engines were shut down. Is there a minimum time that an engine should be cooled or run at minimal RPM prior to shutdown?

When given approval to extend the landing roll on RWY34L at YSSY are there any other considerations that need to be taken into account (maximum speed, etc). I've noticed the Dash-8's don't appear to be doing the extended landing roll anymore. Not sure if this is by design or not getting the approval to do it.

 

[jb747]

Had an interesting scenario last week on a QF Jet Connect 737 from AKL-SYD. The aircraft landed on 34L and extended it's landing roll to taxiway G and then taxied straight to Gate 37. It was less than 30 seconds from the time we turned off RWY34L until we pulled up at Gate 37. Everyone was requested to remain in their seats for an extended period of time until the engines were shut down. Is there a minimum time that an engine should be cooled or run at minimal RPM prior to shutdown?

It was 3 minutes on the 747, and it's 5 on the 380. Dunno about the 737, but there would be a laid down time.

When given approval to extend the landing roll on RWY34L at YSSY are there any other considerations that need to be taken into account (maximum speed, etc). I've noticed the Dash-8's don't appear to be doing the extended landing roll anymore. Not sure if this is by design or not getting the approval to do it.

Maximum taxi speed is generally around 30 knots (aircraft limits)...so this isn't an approval to taxi at 60 knots, though I've certainly seen some who think it is. It can be a sucker trap for those who forget that they are still on the landing roll, and don't slow early enough or adequately as they approach the turn off.

Dunno what Dash 8s are doing.

 

[Boris spatsky]

A roll through on 34L is rare - needs to be quiet period, middle of the day normally, and no one behind you. Normally it is mandated that you take the high speed rapid exit half way down the runway, unless ATC approve otherwise.

Yes, if we taxi slow to the gate and it is very close, we are doing it to cool the engines. Getting onto the gate and then waiting seems to annoy the passengers

 

[Quickstatus]

Is the cover of the engines too hot to touch when aircraft is arrives at gate and doors opened? - do engineers have to wait a further period before they can service engine?

 

[Boris spatsky]

Is the cover of the engines too hot to touch when aircraft is arrives at gate and doors opened? - do engineers have to wait a further period before they can service engine?

No idea. The limit would be written in the maintenance manuals i would assume. I have seen engineers access the engines soon after shutdown by opening the cowls, but not sure if they then waited a period of time before tinkering.

 

[flychrisfly]

We ensure (procedures differ across the aircraft types) that the cabin crew have finished before we enter the runway. It is sometimes a cause of momentary delay...just the way it is.

Do delays of this sort affect ATC and the scheduling of takeoffs since, I presume, the delay is only known at the last minute. Or are there some known timings plus communications with ATC to streamline the process?

 

[RooFlyer]

Probably one for domestic pilots, but all comments welcome.

If you wanted to pushback early ... possibly due to predicted worsening weather at the destination or maybe to avoid impending congestion at the departing runway ... what is involved in making this happen? Do you need an operational reason or might you just decide 'lets try to get away a bit early'?

For instance, is any company 'clearance' required or ATC permission needed at the departing or arriving airport prior to the early call for passengers to board?

All pax are required to be 'at the gate' 30 mins before departure so is there any 'come-back' for the passenger if a HLO passenger rocks up at 15 mins before departure and the doors have already closed? That is, are you required to allow all pax the 'normal' boarding window even in you are trying hard to leave early, or does Captain's decision to close the doors early rule (again, it would only be HLO pax who could be excluded)?

Question arises from my experience a few days ago when a 717 flight MEL to HBA was called 15 mins before it usually is and we pushed back 5 mins early, immediately after the past pax boarded, long after the rest of us were seated and settled; weather was good in HBA. Not complaining mind you ...