Ask The Pilot

[eric2011]

If I had to stay in hotel rooms as often as pilots do, after the novelty (first six months) had worn off,

I'm not a pilot but trust me the novelty wears off a hell of lot earlier than 6 months LOL

 

[jb747]

'The Sydney Morning Herald' has just posted an article on its website 'Flying tired: airline pilots on tough rosters battle fatigue.' Presumably it will be in the Saturday print edition as well.

A more interesting article than normally found in the print media. Quite accurate, but it actually shows the situation as being more rosy than it really is.

If I had to stay in hotel rooms as often as pilots do, after the novelty (first six months) had worn off, I too might find noisy other hotel guests, talkative cleaners (room attendants) and perhaps even occasionally not very good blackout curtains to be tedious.

There is no novelty. Blackout curtains rarely work at all. Other guests are simply not 'house trained'. Talking in the corridor, using your phone there, slamming doors, loud TV, etc are the norm. Cleaning staff slam every door, multiple times. They'll actually ring you up and ask if you want your room cleaned if you have the "don't disturb" sign on display. Hotels are chosen by accountants, and cost seems to be the only criteria. How else would you explain 2 hour bus rides to get to a hotel. Airport hotels are the worst though, as they have all of the usual issues...but magnified.

 

[jb747]

JB, Boris etc, what do you see as the 'best' outcome if you could mandate a set of conditions. There have been some accidents of recent times where strange decisions were made by trained and capable pilots though several factors, probably fatigue among them.

The rules need to be some form of flexible fatigue monitored system. This is supposedly what is in the works, but as usual, I'll believe it when I see it. When such systems were first mooted, the airlines were just about salivating, as they saw it as a way of adding to the workload. I expect that's the real reason behind the delay in implementation.

The biggest 'lie' I see in all of this is the claim that fatigue has rarely caused an accident. I expect that it's only been looked at in recent years. I'd be surprised if there isn't an element of it in just about every 'pilot error' accident that has ever occurred. In that case, it goes from being rare, to being the most common!

Domestic pilots have their own issues with the early start/ late night finish domestic flights, which I caught many many times a month to save on hotel expenses. These pilots seem to return with their flight as another leg in some instances.

The issues with short haul operations are very likely even worse than long haul. I've been extremely tired at times on the long ops, but never as shattered as when flying the 767 domestically. Those early morning flights that are mentioned in the newspaper aren't necessarily crewed by pilots who got out of bed at 2:30am. It's just as likely that they've been operating all night, having done the 'brown' or 'red' eye from Perth. One legal flight was Singapore - Perth - Melbourne - Sydney. Leaving Singapore at about 7pm. Midnight from Perth, and the 6am out of Melbourne. Perth-Melbourne-Sydney-Melbourne is quite legal...so you can spread the fatigue around amongst most of the morning domestics.

Getting sleep prior to a duty is largely impossible. How many of you can go to sleep to order at 2pm? The pills that might help are all banned within the time period that would be useful.

All airlines say that they treat this seriously, but the feedback about many is that whilst you might be allowed to say you're too tired, saying that you are fatigued will result in you being grounded. If Rostov turns out to be fatigue related, I won't be surprised.

 

[Melburnian1]

I'm not saying this to be critical, and realise that tech crew are really there for the 'challenging' situations that require all hands on deck not the mundane, but is not one rationale that the airlines would point out to pilot representatives and the like re fatigue that in a sense you are like '2 up' road coach drivers or 'driver plus fireman' in the cab of a rail locomotive in that during what the airlines might suggest are the 'mundane' parts of a flight, one of you can at least occasionally nod off and the other 'cover' for you.

Of course that is not proper sleep. I raise it merely because the airlines might want to state in their defence that it's not as if you are alone in your coughpit like some long distance freight or passenger train or road coach drivers are. At times on overnight coaches I have asked the driver if he would mind having a chat and the almost universal response has been 'very welcome, because it helps pass the time and keep me alert and foscused.'

There are limits to analogies between surface and air transport and analogies do not prove anything, but there may also be some parallels in terms of disruption to normal sleep patterns despite the time zone issue largely being confined to airlines not surface transport.

 

[jb747]

I'm not saying this to be critical, and realise that tech crew are really there for the 'challenging' situations that require all hands on deck not the mundane, but is not one rationale that the airlines would point out to pilot representatives and the like re fatigue that in a sense you are like '2 up' road coach drivers or 'driver plus fireman' in the cab of a rail locomotive in that during what the airlines might suggest are the 'mundane' parts of a flight, one of you can at least occasionally nod off and the other 'cover' for you.

Sometimes even the relatively mundane takes a couple of pairs of eyes (and ears). But you are correct in that the long haul flights often have quiet periods, where little is happening. The way flight deck rest is managed across airlines varies dramatically. Close to home it's supposed to be for a very short period to just relieve the drowsiness. Others have used it to allow 2 man operations from Europe to Asia. If your head is bouncing off the coaming because you simply can't hold it up, then perhaps a sleep is the best idea.

Of course that is not proper sleep. I raise it merely because the airlines might want to state in their defence that it's not as if you are alone in your coughpit like some long distance freight or passenger train or road coach drivers are. At times on overnight coaches I have asked the driver if he would mind having a chat and the almost universal response has been 'very welcome, because it helps pass the time and keep me alert and focused.'

The biggest issue is actually directly related to this. As soon as one bloke closes his eyes for that nap...guess what the other does. He no longer has anyone to talk to (solving the issues of the world along the way), and now, even if he felt reasonable beforehand, as often as not starts to feel tired himself. I'm not a huge fan of the process for exactly this reason. When the idea was first introduced (in the 90s) I recall asking the FO how he felt, and if he'd mind if I closed my eyes for 10 minutes. About 5 minutes later I looked across at him, and he was totally out to it...and he stayed that way for much of the remainder of the flight, no matter how many radio calls I made, or cups of coffee I had delivered.

How common is both pilots sleeping? Rather an unknown, but, given the number of times you'll hear an aircraft miss radio call after call, and then suddenly appear as if nothing had happened, I'd suggest it's very common.

 

[Melburnian1]

That's a fascinating observation - that when one of you closes his eyes, it has some sort of reaction (to tiredness) in the other. A potentially big point in any industrial relations negotiations.

 

[Boris spatsky]

JB, Boris etc, what do you see as the 'best' outcome if you could mandate a set of conditions. There have been some accidents of recent times where strange decisions were made by trained and capable pilots though several factors, probably fatigue among them.
Domestic pilots have their own issues with the early start/ late night finish domestic flights, which I caught many many times a month to save on hotel expenses. These pilots seem to return with their flight as another leg in some instances.

I don't think that there is any good outcome; nor could a mandated set of requirements apply worldwide. We are all moving to a Fatigue Risk Management program soon that will allow some flexibility. We trialled it in the military around 2006-8 based on a USAF trial. You enter every duty in a large algorithm based computer program as well as sleep and it tells you using a figure from 1-100 when you are at risk of acute or coughulative fatigue. I think over 60 was amber and over 80 was red from memory but these thresholds can be changed. You can then use this data to change crewing rosters. Worked well in the military where you just had a hard figure that if you hit, you couldn't' fly. I don't see it working like that at all in the civil world.

 

[Boris spatsky]

That's a fascinating observation - that when one of you closes his eyes, it has some sort of reaction (to tiredness) in the other. A potentially big point in any industrial relations negotiations.

Try sitting at a dinner table and deliberately yawning - after a few minutes, everyone will be!

 

[Melburnian1]

Worked well in the military where you just had a hard figure that if you hit, you couldn't' fly. I don't see it working like that at all in the civil world.

Is that because no matter how hard a software program for rostering tries, there will always be some rosters that are at least somewhat 'unsatisfactory' as regards sleep patterns with domestic and international airlines?

Or is it a corporate desire to spend less on labour (tech crew)?

 

[Boris spatsky]

Is that because no matter how hard a software program for rostering tries, there will always be some rosters that are at least somewhat 'unsatisfactory' as regards sleep patterns with domestic and international airlines?

Or is it a corporate desire to spend less on labour (tech crew)?

Cancelling a flight in the military or delaying a few hours to meet fatigue limits was never a major problem. In an airline where the bottom dollar counts and delays cost money, i just can't see it working. I could be wrong...

 

[Saab34]

I've been watching radars over the years and I have always wondered why some flights track directly over other airports en route. I note some flights even change heading just to fly over an airport then continue on.

Examples:
Jetstar BNE-LST flew directly over SYD enroute
Qantas MEL-LAX flew directly over SYD Enroute
Air NZ PER-AKL flew over MEL

??

 

[Boris spatsky]

I've been watching radars over the years and I have always wondered why some flights track directly over other airports en route. I note some flights even change heading just to fly over an airport then continue on.

Examples:
Jetstar BNE-LST flew directly over SYD enroute
Qantas MEL-LAX flew directly over SYD Enroute
Air NZ PER-AKL flew over MEL

??

There are specific airways that we need to fly along - generally the only time that you don't have to fly on these is when you are in some oceanic areas or when flying a route that is not frequented by other aircraft. The main city pairs have designated routes to follow depending on aircraft type (jet or non-jet). Airways also generally keep you clear of active restricted airspace.

When aircraft fly over the top of or near a major airport enroute, the best place for the route to take them is directly over the top; routes going to the sides generally would impede arrival or departure traffic. So most of the routes will go straight over the top.

For example, Brisbane to Canberra has two routes - one coastal that goes directly over Sydney, and another that goes inland a fair way and is longer.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

How common is both pilots sleeping? Rather an unknown, but, given the number of times you'll hear an aircraft miss radio call after call, and then suddenly appear as if nothing had happened, I'd suggest it's very common.

There appears to be some data here: 'More than half' of pilots have slept while flying - BBC News and here: https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/eca_barometer_on_pilot_fatigue_12_1107_f.pdf

 

[JessicaTam]

From the A330 refurb thread:

according to Fred C on the YYSY forum QPJ will remain in brisbane from the 23rd April unless needed. Refit and check for QPJ will begin on the 3rd May.

It seems odd that an aircraft would sit on the ground for a week. Could it have been grounded until the check is done? How much leeway do airlines get with the checks required at certain hours?

 

[Boris spatsky]

I might be missing something, but i assume it is going in for a refit of the interior but will be parked and waiting for a week before hand? If that is the case, i would assume it is doing a heavy maintenance check at the same time. These cannot be overflown sometimes depending on components and which check it is. We recently had an aircraft on the ground for a week also as it had hit it's hours limit and the aircraft ahead of it in heavy maintenance was delayed so they just had to park it.

Some hours can be overflown, some need CASA approval (and sometimes approval/advice from the manufacturer as well), and some can't.

 

[Mattg]

The SMH article on pilot fatigue mentioned that Tiger and Jetstar pilots operate SYD-PER-SYD sectors back to back, with the latter flight being the redeye.

I'd be interested to know whether QF or VA pilots currently operate the PER-SYD/MEL/BNE redeyes as individual sectors, of whether they would operate any other flights on the same shift?

A little while ago I flew BME-PER-CBR on the same day. The same tech crew operated all the way from Broome to Canberra, having begun their day with a PER-BME flight. I can imagine that must have been a long day for them, although the final landing into CBR was so smooth you'd never have known.

 

[JessicaTam]

I might be missing something, but i assume it is going in for a refit of the interior but will be parked and waiting for a week before hand? If that is the case, i would assume it is doing a heavy maintenance check at the same time. These cannot be overflown sometimes depending on components and which check it is. We recently had an aircraft on the ground for a week also as it had hit it's hours limit and the aircraft ahead of it in heavy maintenance was delayed so they just had to park it.

Some hours can be overflown, some need CASA approval (and sometimes approval/advice from the manufacturer as well), and some can't.

Thanks for that.

 

[jb747]

I'd be interested to know whether QF or VA pilots currently operate the PER-SYD/MEL/BNE redeyes as individual sectors, of whether they would operate any other flights on the same shift?

East coast/west coast return is a quite normal schedule across all of the airlines. If you can fit it into about 12 hours then it can be scheduled.

 

[Himeno]

East coast/west coast return is a quite normal schedule across all of the airlines. If you can fit it into about 12 hours then it can be scheduled.

Does QF use the same crew for LAX-JFK-LAX?

 

[jb747]

Does QF use the same crew for LAX-JFK-LAX?

Not in one hit....!

They operate to LAX (from Brisbane at the moment, I think). Have a slip in LA until at least the next day, then go to JFK. Slip there used to vary between 1 and 2 days, so I'm not sure what it is at the moment. Then back to LA, slip again. Then home.

The duration of the slips has varied over the years. I always preferred a short one in LA, long in JFK, and then short again in LA.

When I was on the 747, the JFK crews mostly came via Auckland.