Ask The Pilot

[mannej]

JB, your Facebook memories page would be fairly full today. Scary how quick that 9 years has passed.

 

[jb747]

Oops. Some delays. She got into NY about 3 hours late. Not sure what the problems were.

On the plus side the flight to LAX was great. Great job by all the QF staff.

The terminal was lacking the usual red-tails when we arrived, and I heard that the 11 would be late. Your wife was on it, so mission accomplished anyway...

 

[jb747]

JB, your Facebook memories page would be fairly full today. Scary how quick that 9 years has passed.

Yes, that's cropped up in a few places, though I don't mark that date out.

 

[mjt57]

The terminal was lacking the usual red-tails when we arrived, and I heard that the 11 would be late. Your wife was on it, so mission accomplished anyway...

Yes, thanks. She got to bed around 10pm NY time, so a good night's sleep. Love Facetime/Facebook video chat.

 

[Flying Fox]

Not sure if its a question that pilots can answer but I was wondering about the fines that airlines face from airports (and any other authority) for delayed arrivals/departures and being stuck on stand or on ground somewhere at the airport being repaired.

Any ideas as to the size of these fines and whether they are per minute/hour/day?

Based on this, would flights like a recent QF2 delayed approx 48 hours become unprofitable (even before paying for transfers and hotels for passengers and the repairs themselves) ?

 

[flychrisfly]

In the aircraft types you are familiar with, if you are flying an approach with the normal sink rate/glide slope (3 degrees?) and it is determined a go-around is needed, how much further will you sink before the thrust and change in control surfaces affects the lift enough to arrest the sinking. Thanks.

 

[AviatorInsight]

In the aircraft types you are familiar with, if you are flying an approach with the normal sink rate/glide slope (3 degrees?) and it is determined a go-around is needed, how much further will you sink before the thrust and change in control surfaces affects the lift enough to arrest the sinking. Thanks.

A great question! Obviously as heights (minima) change, and temperature differences, etc, this will change the amount of height lost. The only reference I can find for the B737 is that at 50ft, if a go around is initiated, the height loss is around 30ft.

 

[mjt57]

The only reference I can find for the B737 is that at 50ft, if a go around is initiated, the height loss is around 30ft.

What happens if the go-around is required at 30'????

Could whatever is happening at 50' happen at a lower altitude/height/elevation/I can see my house from here????

 

[AviatorInsight]

What happens if the go-around is required at 30'????

Could whatever is happening at 50' happen at a lower altitude/height/elevation/I can see my house from here????

I had a feeling that question would be coming so I did a little more digging. In a company presentation, at 30' height loss in a 737-800 is around 15'. For those who are then wondering how low you can go....at 10' height loss is only 6'. This is for a CAT III approach.

The -700 does better on these height losses. Even if a touchdown occurs, continue with the normal go around procedures.

 

[mjt57]

Even if a touchdown occurs, continue with the normal go around procedures.

I often wonder about this. If you've contacted the ground, why would it be safer to take off again?

I watched an A380 land at Manchester on YouTube. It had clearly touched the runway but then it took off again. It looked like it was safe to continue the landing, but obviously the pilots (or the captain, rather) didn't think that it was safe to do so.

I was watching Sydney traffic on FR24 and had the ATC Net playing radio traffic. (my wife was coming into Sydney and was tracking her progress). A Singapore Airlines A380 was about 10 or so miles from the airport then it reported an "unstable approach" and commenced a go around from that far out. Obviously something happened and despite being a fair distance off (to my untrained eye), they couldn't rectify it and continue.

 

[AviatorInsight]

I often wonder about this. If you've contacted the ground, why would it be safer to take off again?

I watched an A380 land at Manchester on YouTube. It had clearly touched the runway but then it took off again. It looked like it was safe to continue the landing, but obviously the pilots (or the captain, rather) didn't think that it was safe to do so.

I was watching Sydney traffic on FR24 and had the ATC Net playing radio traffic. (my wife was coming into Sydney and was tracking her progress). A Singapore Airlines A380 was about 10 or so miles from the airport then it reported an "unstable approach" and commenced a go around from that far out. Obviously something happened and despite being a fair distance off (to my untrained eye), they couldn't rectify it and continue.

If a go around was initiated prior to touchdown, something must have happened to want to take the problem back into the air. Too much would be going on in the flight deck to then reverse the situation and still have enough runway available to stop and/or controllability issues if the landing roll was to be continued.

Even if a go around was initiated after touchdown, the procedure is to still continue with the go around. The spoilers will automatically stow and it would be normal from there.

However, if the reverse thrust had been used at any point, it's game over and you are now committed to the landing.

As for the SQ A380, an unstable approach from 10nm out (about 3000') can be anything deemed by the flight crew as undesirable to continue. This could be a failure of some kind that needed a checklist to be done prior to landing, or it could also be that weather conditions may not have beeen desirable for them. I am under the impression that RWY25 was in use for most of the day today (if it is in fact today you are talking about).

 

[Boris spatsky]

I was watching Sydney traffic on FR24 and had the ATC Net playing radio traffic. (my wife was coming into Sydney and was tracking her progress). A Singapore Airlines A380 was about 10 or so miles from the airport then it reported an "unstable approach" and commenced a go around from that far out. Obviously something happened and despite being a fair distance off (to my untrained eye), they couldn't rectify it and continue.

There is a 'gate' or could be more than 1 where you need to be 'stable'. Generally 1000 ft above the aerodrome, gear down, flaps at landing position, within lateral and vertical tolerances of the approach type you are flying with a suitable power setting and within a designated speed band. There is a formal call of 'stable'. If not stable, it is a requirement to go around (in most Western airlines at least). Once through the gate, if you become unstable outside the requirements, then you are still required to go around. Even on landing if you land long (outside of a designated area for the runway length), you are required to go around.

Each company has an interpretation of the stable requirement in their ops manual - ultimately though, the intent is the same.

 

[Quickstatus]

With the indulgence of the aviators I would like to add to the thread about TOGA by referring to the prelim report on EK521 (B777-300 crash at DXB after a failed TOGA during windshear conditions)


Here is the prelim report:
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublica...Report, AAIS Case AIFN-0008-2016 - A6-EMW.pdf

An excerpt from the report about TOGA: Interestingly confirming the initial theory that after wheels touchdown on runway the autoflight systems thinks the aircraft has landed and inhibits the TOGA button therefore requiring an after touchdown TOGA to be a manual advance of the thrust levers. Elsewhere there is an entry which says TOGA switches are inhibited when on the ground and activated when airborne. Activating the TOGA button when touchdown occurs then does nothing but wastes precious time.

 

[mjt57]

I am under the impression that RWY25 was in use for most of the day today (if it is in fact today you are talking about).

No, it was last year sometime.

And thanks for for the feedback on go arounds.

 

[harvyk]

In the event that you turn up to an airport and there is an issue which delays the flight beyond your hours what happens in that situation?

What happens if the hours expire and you’re at your home port? Are you simply sent home and that’s it, or are you given an alternate flight to operate once your rest period is up?

What about ports within Australia where you’ve had to deadhead in to perform the flight (thinking for instance QF flights from BNE), and overseas ports where ultimately you need to get home at some point?

 

[jb747]

Not sure if its a question that pilots can answer but I was wondering about the fines that airlines face from airports (and any other authority) for delayed arrivals/departures and being stuck on stand or on ground somewhere at the airport being repaired.

Any ideas as to the size of these fines and whether they are per minute/hour/day?

Based on this, would flights like a recent QF2 delayed approx 48 hours become unprofitable (even before paying for transfers and hotels for passengers and the repairs themselves) ?

More a case of the costs of parking, etc. I don't think there are fines for just being late, though it can endanger a slot. It's not something the pilots concern themselves with....you don't want that sort of cost issue to cloud or change operational decisions.

 

[jb747]

The reason a very late go around uses up less height is that the aircraft has mostly likely already entered the flare. So, if you push the power up at that point, and slowly raise the nose (you don't want a tail strike), you'll initially enter what looks like a long float, and then it will slowly convert to a climb.

 

[jb747]

With the indulgence of the aviators I would like to add to the thread about TOGA by referring to the prelim report on EK521 (B777-300 crash at DXB after a failed TOGA during windshear conditions)

The issue of the TOGA switches working or not should be irrelevant. You push the levers to TO/GA, and take care of giving the switches a prod at some point. If you've pushed the power up, all the switches will be doing is getting the flight director into the correct mode.

There is a video on youtube of an SQ 777 landing in Munich in which the TO/GA switches were pushed...when what was needed was A/P disconnect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rn-iI7wX-Y

 

[jb747]

I often wonder about this. If you've contacted the ground, why would it be safer to take off again?.

Too long, too fast.

I watched an A380 land at Manchester on YouTube. It had clearly touched the runway but then it took off again. It looked like it was safe to continue the landing, but obviously the pilots (or the captain, rather) didn't think that it was safe to do so.

I presume it was Emirates. They have a couple of warning systems that work for long landings, or excess energy on approach, both of which can give spurious results in some circumstances. It is nevertheless mandatory to go around if they give a warning.

I was watching Sydney traffic on FR24 and had the ATC Net playing radio traffic. (my wife was coming into Sydney and was tracking her progress). A Singapore Airlines A380 was about 10 or so miles from the airport then it reported an "unstable approach" and commenced a go around from that far out. Obviously something happened and despite being a fair distance off (to my untrained eye), they couldn't rectify it and continue.

Too fast, too high, not enough flap in the breeze.

 

[jb747]

In the event that you turn up to an airport and there is an issue which delays the flight beyond your hours what happens in that situation?

You might run out of hours for the original plan, but various alternatives will be looked at before it's all cancelled. For instance, out of LA, could we operate to Auckland? The company could probably position someone there in about the same time frame. They will also be ringing everybody in an attempt to replace your crew.

What happens if the hours expire and you’re at your home port? Are you simply sent home and that’s it, or are you given an alternate flight to operate once your rest period is up?

Go home. You owe the company the value of the flight. You may get another flight, or it could turn your roster into a no mans land of sims and standbys. It invariably costs you.

What about ports within Australia where you’ve had to deadhead in to perform the flight (thinking for instance QF flights from BNE), and overseas ports where ultimately you need to get home at some point?

There is no plan. You could be just abandoned somewhere until they get around to moving or using you. You might pax somewhere else. Whim of the gods stuff.