Ask The Pilot

[mjt57]

Which of you folks flew C130s? I have a question or two.

In tonight's WIN news there was a story on the upcoming fire season. They appear to have procured one (I don't know it's model designator for this particular aircraft) for fire fighting ops.

Just wondering how much water or chemicals they can carry, and how slow they can fly in order to attack the fires, compared to the Sky Crane, for example? Or even the DC-10 I think they used last year.

 

[jb747]

Which of you folks flew C130s? I have a question or two.

In tonight's WIN news there was a story on the upcoming fire season. They appear to have procured one (I don't know it's model designator for this particular aircraft) for fire fighting ops.

Just wondering how much water or chemicals they can carry, and how slow they can fly in order to attack the fires, compared to the Sky Crane, for example? Or even the DC-10 I think they used last year.

We lost our C130 guy a year or two back.

Info here: https://www.nifc.gov/PIO_bb/Background/2012FFAircraftFactSheet.pdf
and here: https://www.aviatorsdatabase.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Erickson-helicopter-Skycranes.pdf

The Skycrane can carry quite a bit, but is fairly slow. C130 looks to have a similar load, but is much faster, and can still operate from pretty restricted runways. The DC10 carries about 3 times as much, but is limited by airfields, and would have slow turnaround compared to a smaller aircraft.

 

[Moody]

Given that the atmosphere is a dynamic environment, it's almost impossible to pick the exact point at which you could take idle thrust and not need any adjustment until on final. It happens, but is more luck than anything else. These days, the aircraft all have auto thrust (throttles) engaged throughout the descent, and they often make power adjustments to keep the aircraft on your programmed profile.

If I wanted to set up an idle descent, I'd descend a little later than usual (I'd have more energy). A small amount of speed brake, or early flap and gear selections can be used to finesse the profile. It rarely fits in with ATC, so it's a technique from the GoDs.

I wouldn't think twice about power changes on descent....

I won't be offended if this story seems apocryphal, but my father told me that many, many years ago he was landing at Heathrow and was surprised by the jerkiness of the approach, The pilot seemed to be constantly adjusting the power and making corrections with rudder and flaps, and my father assumed it was the PF's first landing into Heathrow if not their first landing period.

In a way he was right, because the captain announced as they were taxiing to the gate that the pax had just experienced the first autopilot landing into Heathrow. I assume that actually meant the first autopilot approach, and the pilot would have taken control for the actual landing.

Assuming that automatics of some sort are used in a standard approach to a busy airport, at what point does the PF have full manual control?

 

[RooFlyer]

In the situation where a long haul flight has to divert to an intermediate airport, and then cannot continue because the pilots would be 'out of hours' by the time the destination is reached, does the actual time on duty influence how much downtime is mandatory before they can continue? That is, if planned 18 hours of duty becomes actual 5 hours to a diversion and stop, is the mandatory downtime less than it would have been after the complete flight (ignoring other logistics)?

I think QF9 and 10 operate with 2 sets of 2 pilots? If so, if the 'second pair' aren't used because of the shorter journey to a diversion and stop, is their mandatory downtime any different from the two who were flying until the diversion and stop?

 

[AviatorInsight]

I won't be offended if this story seems apocryphal, but my father told me that many, many years ago he was landing at Heathrow and was surprised by the jerkiness of the approach, The pilot seemed to be constantly adjusting the power and making corrections with rudder and flaps, and my father assumed it was the PF's first landing into Heathrow if not their first landing period.

In a way he was right, because the captain announced as they were taxiing to the gate that the pax had just experienced the first autopilot landing into Heathrow. I assume that actually meant the first autopilot approach, and the pilot would have taken control for the actual landing.

Assuming that automatics of some sort are used in a standard approach to a busy airport, at what point does the PF have full manual control?

Environmental conditions definitely dictate what kind of approach you’ll experience. While I can’t speak for LHR, I can for certain other airports.

Firstly, I doubt the rudder was being used in a jet aircraft unless it was just before touchdown, had an engine failure, or was used for centreline tracking on the runway. Secondly, flaps aren’t used for making corrections on approach but flaperons are ;-).

If the conditions are visual then there’s no reason I can’t kick out the automatics from 20,000ft if I wanted to. If not, then it makes good sense and airmanship to leave the automatics in until a point at which you can no longer have the autopilot coupled (B737 is 50ft) or, you conduct an autoland.

Two things necessitate an autoland. The first being that conditions require it, the second is that some operators need to conduct them for recency requirements.

On a normal day, unless visibility conditions dictate otherwise, I’ll disconnect at 1000ft. Both autopilot and autothrottle. The 777 can land with the autothrottle still engaged.

 

[AviatorInsight]

In the situation where a long haul flight has to divert to an intermediate airport, and then cannot continue because the pilots would be 'out of hours' by the time the destination is reached, does the actual time on duty influence how much downtime is mandatory before they can continue? That is, if planned 18 hours of duty becomes actual 5 hours to a diversion and stop, is the mandatory downtime less than it would have been after the complete flight (ignoring other logistics)?

I think QF9 and 10 operate with 2 sets of 2 pilots? If so, if the 'second pair' aren't used because of the shorter journey to a diversion and stop, is their mandatory downtime any different from the two who were flying until the diversion and stop?

Not sure how QF’s rules work (I assume it’s the same seeing as it’s the same crew complement as VA), but all crew are on duty from sign on to sign off. All 4 pilots are required to sit in the flight deck during take off and landing and make decisions together. Because it is an augmented crew the max duty they can do is 20hrs. After that all of them will need the same amount of rest.

For example, we were SYD-LAX and had an operational requirement to divert to BNE. I was in the bunk after take off and still required the minimum rest once on the ground before my next duty.

 

[opusman]

So if QF do succeed in getting a plane that can do SYD-LHR non-stop, won't they have trouble with max crew hours? Or will CASA simply "update" the rules?

 

[jb747]

I won't be offended if this story seems apocryphal, but my father told me that many, many years ago he was landing at Heathrow and was surprised by the jerkiness of the approach, The pilot seemed to be constantly adjusting the power and making corrections with rudder and flaps, and my father assumed it was the PF's first landing into Heathrow if not their first landing period.

Autoland systems are generally very smooth, especially as their level of control is reduced as you approach the ground (this limits their authority in case of a runaway, or failure). Jerkiness, especially in roll, is normally an indication of pilot over controlling. Nevertheless, the earliest systems in use (Trident) could well have been rougher than we're used to these days. Neither rudder nor flaps are manipulated during an approach. The yaw damper looks after the rudder(s), and flaps are set and forget.

Interesting bit of history here: Autoland - Wikipedia

In a way he was right, because the captain announced as they were taxiing to the gate that the pax had just experienced the first autopilot landing into Heathrow. I assume that actually meant the first autopilot approach, and the pilot would have taken control for the actual landing.

There would have been innumerable auto landings into Heathrow during the development of the systems, and before the airport and aircraft were certified.

Autoland is just that...the aircraft flies itself all the way to touchdown.

Assuming that automatics of some sort are used in a standard approach to a busy airport, at what point does the PF have full manual control?

You can take the aircraft back at any time that you feel like it. In reduced visibility, it's generally best to let the system continue the landing, but all you actually need at the disconnect point is an expectation that you'll achieve the required visibility for a manual landing. On most visual approaches, the autopilot is disconnected around 1,000'. Non precision approaches (from which autoland is not possible) require the autopilot to be disconnected by 50' below the minima...so call it a couple of hundred feet.

The issue with manually flying the aircraft during the arrival is that it distracts you from everything else that is going on, and also requires more careful monitoring by the pilot not flying. For that reason it's not a smart move at the end of a long day, or in a busy environment.

 

[jb747]

So if QF do succeed in getting a plane that can do SYD-LHR non-stop, won't they have trouble with max crew hours? Or will CASA simply "update" the rules?

One would hope that a bit more thought goes into it than that. At this point in time, the rules will not allow the flights that have been mooted.

Whilst the crew rest in some aircraft (the A380 in particular) is excellent, in most others it's an afterthought to varying degrees. Some are quite noisy. Many are uncomfortable. A quote I heard some years ago when discussing a poor crew rest implementation was "...the rules say we have to install a crew rest, but they don't say you have to be able to sleep in it". Whether airline and regulatory management is any more enlightened these days is an interesting question.

Consider the timings likely for a flight from Sydney to London. I expect you're looking at a departure in the early evening, and an arrival first thing in the morning. Getting any sleep prior to late afternoon/early evening flights is always a problem, so the chances are good that the crew that have to land at the end of the flight would have had just a few hours of sleep in the preceding 30+ hours. Fatigue, and just general lack of sleep, will be a huge problem on these flights. Stringing multiple of them into a roster will be a nightmare.

The upshot is that the crew rests provided, and the rules managing the flights, will need to be very carefully thought out. Hopefully such considerations will not fall prey to commercial concerns.

 

[jb747]

I think QF9 and 10 operate with 2 sets of 2 pilots? If so, if the 'second pair' aren't used because of the shorter journey to a diversion and stop, is their mandatory downtime any different from the two who were flying until the diversion and stop?

There aren't two sets of pilots. There is one Captain, one FO, and two SOs. The Captain and FO make up the minimum crew complement, and the SOs are additional. All are on for the start and end of the flight (approximately the first and last hour of flight, plus all ground time). Only the Captain and FO are licenced to be in the seats at lower levels. The roster in the cruise will generally break into 3-4 hour stints on duty, depending upon the flight time. The Captain, or the FO, must be present all times (other than toilet breaks).

The duty period has a maximum of 20 hours, and starts about one hour before the flight, and ends about 15 minutes after arriving at the gate. You cannot exceed that, and it makes no allowance for time off. Flight deck duty time is the maximum flight time that you're allowed to be in the coughpit, actively on duty. This time varies, but 8-9 hours.

If you want to rip your hair out, look up CAO 48.

 

[JohnM]

If I heard the Captain correctly on last week's greatly delayed 10, the crew that eventually flew it was Captain, 2 FOs and 1 SO.

 

[jb747]

If I heard the Captain correctly on last week's greatly delayed 10, the crew that eventually flew it was Captain, 2 FOs and 1 SO.

Quite likely. There have also been recent flights with 3 Captains. It's a new aircraft, and there's a lot of training going on. That crew structure would either indicate an FO under training, or they may be short of SOs (they're all new hires).

 

[jb747]

I was asked a little while back about plans for my final trip. The powers that be have promised that they'll build a Melbourne based London trip for me. It won't be confirmed until December, but rough planning (and I mean rough) will be:

QF35 Mel-Sin 22/01/19
QF01 Sin-Lon 23/01/19
QF02 Lon-Sin 26/01/19
QF36 Sin-Mel 29/01/19

 

[flyer89]

I was asked a little while back about plans for my final trip. The powers that be have promised that they'll build a Melbourne based London trip for me. It won't be confirmed until December, but rough planning (and I mean rough) will be:

QF35 Mel-Sin 22/01/19
QF01 Sin-Lon 23/01/19
QF02 Lon-Sin 26/01/19
QF36 Sin-Mel 29/01/19

Final meal at Fatty’s?

 

[jb747]

Final meal at Fatty’s?

Always best to go there at lunchtime. Much quieter...

 

[Captain Halliday]

I was asked a little while back about plans for my final trip. The powers that be have promised that they'll build a Melbourne based London trip for me. It won't be confirmed until December, but rough planning (and I mean rough) will be:

QF35 Mel-Sin 22/01/19
QF01 Sin-Lon 23/01/19
QF02 Lon-Sin 26/01/19
QF36 Sin-Mel 29/01/19

Missed by three days - again. “Rough” is encouraging.

 

[Himeno]

I was asked a little while back about plans for my final trip. The powers that be have promised that they'll build a Melbourne based London trip for me. It won't be confirmed until December, but rough planning (and I mean rough) will be:

QF35 Mel-Sin 22/01/19
QF01 Sin-Lon 23/01/19
QF02 Lon-Sin 26/01/19
QF36 Sin-Mel 29/01/19

How about flights in late November? Need to pick between 36 or 38

 

[JessicaTam]

There aren't two sets of pilots. There is one Captain, one FO, and two SOs. The Captain and FO make up the minimum crew complement, and the SOs are additional. All are on for the start and end of the flight (approximately the first and last hour of flight, plus all ground time). Only the Captain and FO are licenced to be in the seats at lower levels. The roster in the cruise will generally break into 3-4 hour stints on duty, depending upon the flight time. The Captain, or the FO, must be present all times (other than toilet breaks).

The duty period has a maximum of 20 hours, and starts about one hour before the flight, and ends about 15 minutes after arriving at the gate. You cannot exceed that, and it makes no allowance for time off. Flight deck duty time is the maximum flight time that you're allowed to be in the coughpit, actively on duty. This time varies, but 8-9 hours.

If you want to rip your hair out, look up CAO 48.

When the captain is resting, does the FO move over to the captain's seat, or does the SO sit there?

 

[AviatorInsight]

When the captain is resting, does the FO move over to the captain's seat, or does the SO sit there?

The FO must sit in their seat and the SO sits in the Captain’s seat.

 

[harvyk]

When the SO is in the coughpit, who is the pilot flying? Does that remain the Cap't / FO with the SO remaining the monitoring pilot, or does the SO also take on some pilot flying for some of the trip? Although during the cruise is there much of a difference between the pilot flying and pilot monitoring roles?