Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

On the other hand I know someone about JB’s age: joined in 1980, got a command on the 747 at 32 and remained there until he moved to the A380. Quite the blessed career.

I joined near the end of another lost decade. In that case, it was caused by the advent of the 747. That aircraft reduced the number of pilots required for a given passenger load dramatically, compared to the 707. In the mid '80s, the 767 had just been ordered, and that was having the opposite effect. As I joined the last of the very long term SOs were just getting FO slots...which they sat in for a very short time. There was also a burst of retirements at the same time, and then the age was 58.

There is an almost mythical group who got 747 and 767 commands in 7-8 years. It wasn't a big group though, and it coincided with a terrible failure rate, especially on the 767. Very much the luck of the draw...and being willing to put your hand up, and risk that failure.

In the following years though, a number of things have conspired to create what amounts to rolling lost decades. The retirement age was progressively increased, first to 60, then 65, and now domestically, without limit. Management decided to create multiple groups of pilots, that they could play one off against one another. This form of industrial warfare led to the Jetstar lost decade. Growth on mainline stagnated, whilst all investment was directed elsewhere. The opposite effect may soon be coming into play, as the on/off nature of their recruiting has led to peaks in retirement.

 

[flyer89]

There is an almost mythical group who got 747 and 767 commands in 7-8 years. It wasn't a big group though, and it coincided with a terrible failure rate, especially on the 767. Very much the luck of the draw...and being willing to put your hand up, and risk that failure.

Were you part of said mythical group?

 

[jb747]

Were you part of said mythical group?

Joined in March 85. B767 command in December 92.

 

[flyer89]

Joined in March 85. B767 command in December 92.

Is it true that when the failure rates increased they made it even harder and the pass rates increased?

 

[jb747]

Is it true that when the failure rates increased they made it even harder and the pass rates increased?

Historically the bar was set, and you simply had to reach it. They were not used to short time pilots, so it wasn’t particularly ‘touchy feely’, but then I was used to that from the military. The failures reached a peak in around mid 92, when the rate hit 100%. The 767 became a very hot potato at that time, and there were a lot of people who let a potential slot go. Immediately after the 100% failure rate was hit, it then jumped to 100% pass for the next two courses. All that had changed was the people on them. Subsequently, a sim assessment program was introduced before you were even allowed to start the course. Worth noting that whilst those two courses had a majority of ex military, there were a few from GA. You were expected to start the course with every possible bit of homework done (i.e. the various rules). There wasn’t time to brush up afterwards, or worse, learn stuff that you’d had 7 years to get sorted out.

It wasn’t unfair, or even unexpectedly hard. In the training they need to see what happens under pressure, and the sim can never provide anything like what you might encounter in the real world. It will never be an easy course, and there’s a fair percentage of people who should not get past it.

 

[flyer89]

It wasn’t unfair, or even unexpectedly hard. In the training they need to see what happens under pressure, and the sim can never provide anything like what you might encounter in the real world. It will never be an easy course, and there’s a fair percentage of people who should not get past it.

Has it changed much since that time? I would assume it has evolved a little with lessons learnt over the years?

 

[jb747]

Has it changed much since that time? I would assume it has evolved a little with lessons learnt over the years?

In what way do you mean?

Has the programme changed? Yes. Is it any easier to get past? I doubt it. The pass rate has probably gone up, but only because they heavily vet who's allowed to start in the first place.

Many 'courses' within the aviation community are less about being a course than they are about being part of a culling mechanism. It polishes what should already be there, but it won't teach you what you don't have in the first place.

 

[flyer89]

Many 'courses' within the aviation community are less about being a course than they are about being part of a culling mechanism. It polishes what should already be there, but it won't teach you what you don't have in the first place.

That’s true at least from my experience at a much lower level. As an instructor the variation of skill and potential of students I encounter is broad.

 

[Saab34]

AV out of interest how did you position yourself to where you are today? I see you are fairly young I assume you started a GA gig in your early 20s?

 

[AviatorInsight]

AV out of interest how did you position yourself to where you are today? I see you are fairly young I assume you started a GA gig in your early 20s?

Correct. So, aviation is where I’ve always wanted to be. I started out with the Air Force cadets in school and went solo when I was 16. Through the next couple of years through high school I went on every flying camp chipping away at my GFPT (now RPL?). At some point I got a scholarship from the Air Force to pay up to my GFPT proving I went through the selection process after school.

I got through to the medical board where they found out I needed glasses and that was the end of my pilot career with the Air Force. I then went to a flying school and got my CPL at the end of that year at 19. I found my passion instructing (from the cadets which I had done), and spent the next year getting my instructor rating and instrument rating. By the time I was 21 I had my first flying job (giving back to the cadets as an instructor) until I got a permanent job with a flying school.

From there I moved to bank running, before being made redundant thanks to the GFC, so I went back to instructing and just did multi IFR for 4 months straight.

By now at 23 I had an interview with Rex and Qlink. Rex called me first so I went with them. Progression was very quick in 08/09 and I got my command at 24. I spent the next 4 years there before applying to Virgin.

Starting out on the 777 as a 28yr old was great even though it wasn’t what interviewed for! But I got stuck there for about 5yrs before getting the promotion to FO and now here I am.

I did hustle during my GA days. I moved flying schools and location for the next job. Working 2 jobs to pay for my training and eating baked beans on toast as a grade 3. instructor, etc. my whole mantra through GA was just ticking boxes. Just in case I had to fall back on my experience. I guess that was a product of being made redundant and I was worried it would happen again.

 

[Hvr]

The failures reached a peak in around mid 92, when the rate hit 100%.

So, what happened to the people who failed? Was that the end of their aviation career? Or were they confined to the RHS for the rest of their career? If retained did they ever get another chance at command?

Thanks

 

[jb747]

So, what happened to the people who failed? Was that the end of their aviation career? Or were they confined to the RHS for the rest of their career? If retained did they ever get another chance at command?

Normally, you just go back to the right hand seat. Any of these courses are an invitation to the company to look very deeply at you, over an extended period, so you need to be prepared for that sort of scrutiny. The company will give you two goes at a course, before you’re locked out of further attempts. Occasionally, there have been people who didn’t survive the scrutiny at all, even for the previous rank, and they could end up demoted or worse.

More than half of the people who miss out will pass on the second attempt. Of the others, many never attempt it again. Of the ones who miss out, management style, or lack thereof, would be a major issue. There’s also a substantial group who never attempt it at all. Lots of reasons for that, but it probably hides quite a few who simply realise that it isn’t for them.

When the 767 failure rate hit its peak, it caused quite a few people to withdraw their bids, and hold off for a year or three. That worked to my advantage, as it moved my slot forward by that same amount.

 

[Quickstatus]

@jb747,
Now that you will be in the SLF compartment of the 93,

Can you please tell me what the single bell anunciation soon after takeoff is for. Thanks!

 

[jb747]

@jb747,
Now that you will be in the SLF compartment of the 93,

Can you please tell me what the single bell anunciation soon after takeoff is for. Thanks!

As that 'ding' has no relevance to the coughpit, I was left wondering myself.

Apparently it's tied to the landing gear, and the automatic activation of the exit signs.

 

[Quickstatus]

I also wonder how this works into or informs cabin crew activities. Normally CC get up when seat belt sign turns off, but the single bell is different

 

[jb747]

I also wonder how this works into or informs cabin crew activities. Normally CC get up when seat belt sign turns off, but the single bell is different

It probably doesn't have any effect on the cabin crew after take off. They are not supposed to be out of their seats until the seat belt signs go off. Some other airlines have variations on this.

On approach though, it would tell them that the landing gear has gone down. Perhaps surprisingly, it isn't all that obvious throughout the aircraft. Once the gear goes down, there should be less than two minutes to touchdown...and it's a last warning for them to be seated.

 

[mikenz]

A few questions:

Does the wifi ‘bulb’ added to the top of aircraft affect aircraft performance at all?

Do 737 coughpits differ at all? They’ve been around a fair while so I was wondering if all are the same or if they have any slight variations within an airline.

 

[FrustratedQP]

It’s my understanding that until the landing gear is raised they are not supposed to speak with each other and they are suppose to silently consider their EP’s should an emergency occur. The ding is an audible cue informing them that the gear is raised.

 

[AviatorInsight]

A few questions:

Does the wifi ‘bulb’ added to the top of aircraft affect aircraft performance at all?

Do 737 coughpits differ at all? They’ve been around a fair while so I was wondering if all are the same or if they have any slight variations within an airline.

The wifi’s only adds a 100kg penalty. So nothing too significant. Engine and wing anti ice attracts a 300kg penalty.

All our 737s are the same as far as coughpit layout. Some have ACARS, some have wifi, some have a sat phone, some still have an ADF (automatic direction finder - this is useful for tuning in AM radio now on a long flight). Some also don’t have window shades.

There’s even no difference to the 737 in terms of coughpit layout. The only difference is the air con itself where there’s no forward and rear temp control it’s just the one for the entire cabin.

 

[Quickstatus]

Are commercial aircraft sat phones built in? or are they a mobile device?