Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

Came across this newsreel of a failed Vulcan landing attempt at Wellington.

Fortunately the damaged plane got airborne and made a "safe" crash landing at Ohakea.

I was wondering if the SIMs ever put this scenario in front of commercial pilots (damaged undercarriage), and is there any technique for minimising the risks when landing with known issues like this?

There is limited value in teaching people to crash, so I don't recall any of such training in the 767. Because both the 747 and 380 could be successfully landed with partial main gear extension, it did come up very occasionally for them. Whether the simulator accurately recreates the behaviour of the aircraft it these situations is doubtful. It's basically see it once in the sim, and if you actually have to do it, you'll be the new expert.

Edit : it turns out this was one of 3 incidents that day.

I'd heard of the Vulcan event, but the Sunderland is a gem. Gotcha.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Edit : it turns out this was one of 3 incidents that day.

Just over 40 yrs ago now the RAN's HMAS Melbourne had two incidents in three hours. First up was an A-4 attempting a landing and rolled off the port side of the ship - not sure if it was caused by an arrestor cable failure. The pilot, a USN LCDR exchange, successfully ejected. This was followed up by a SeaKing flown by LCDR Vic Battese that had a tail rotor failure and ditched with the flight crew being rescued.

 

[Quickstatus]

Today the 777x test flight didn’t take off. My friend is at PAE on a ticket to watch the inauguration. He gets another bite at another breakfast/speech tomorrow. Presumably he gets to keep going back to multiple breakfasts until it takes off.

reason was wind gusts.

But a Boeing Dreamlifter (modified 747) was able to land.

The A380 and Dreamlifter have a large side profile. How much does the side profile of an aircraft contribute to its handling in XW takeoffs and landings?

 

[jb747]

Just over 40 yrs ago now the RAN's HMAS Melbourne had two incidents in three hours. First up was an A-4 attempting a landing and rolled off the port side of the ship - not sure if it was caused by an arrestor cable failure. The pilot, a USN LCDR exchange, successfully ejected. This was followed up by a SeaKing flown by LCDR Vic Battese that had a tail rotor failure and ditched with the flight crew being rescued.

I knew all of the people involved in those events.

The A4 was caused by the arrestor wire breaking. Kev Finan was very quick to use the seat, and not a moment too soon. After returning to the USA, he had a long commercial career with Alaskan. He flew the F4 before coming to Oz on exchange.

The Seaking was a tail rotor drive failure, but that's about all I recall of it.

 

[jb747]

Today the 777x test flight didn’t take off. My friend is at PAE on a ticket to watch the inauguration. He gets another bite at another breakfast/speech tomorrow. Presumably he gets to keep going back to multiple breakfasts until it takes off.

reason was wind gusts.

But a Boeing Dreamlifter (modified 747) was able to land.

The A380 and Dreamlifter have a large side profile. How much does the side profile of an aircraft contribute to its handling in XW takeoffs and landings?

Whilst the 777X will ultimately have cross wind limits in the order of 35-40 knots, right now it would be quite limited. Probably less than 20, and possibly even more restrictive than that. As the test program progresses, the limits will increase.

The A380 has a 40 knot limit. The issue is not the side area, but more the rudder authority, and undercarriage load limitations. The 747 has always been able to land without removing any of the drift, right up to 35 knots. I'd expect the Dreamlifter would be similar.

 

[Quickstatus]

That’s possible. I’ll find out.

On these ULH especially going west, would the starting point be max fuel then work out what payload can be?.

How does the workflow go?.
Flight plan
Proposed Payload
How much fuel needs to be uplifted
Correct payload if max fuel indicated?

What if the pilots run out of hours while on approach into an airport (assume that at departure the flight plan suggests they were going to be OK and also at last alternate diversion point)?

Do pilots add in time contingencies like a go around and possibility of diverting to an alternate if destination airfield is closed?. For example like fuel but now it’s Time to destination plus go around plus diversion to alternate plus 30 min post flight?.
Or declare an emergency?

 

[jb747]

On these ULH especially going west, would the starting point be max fuel then work out what payload can be?.

The starting point would never be maximum fuel. The idea is to carry maximum payload. So, do a computer run (which takes seconds) based on the maximum offered payload. If that doesn't work trade off payload for fuel until it does. There's probably a name for this sort of computer program, but it's really just playing with a bunch of 'what if' scenarios until the planner gets an answer he likes.

What if the pilots run out of hours while on approach into an airport (assume that at departure the flight plan suggests they were going to be OK and also at last alternate diversion point)?

You immediately eject, and leave the passengers to sort it out themselves.

You must have a real expectation of being within the limits at take off, and at the various diversion points along the way. If you lose time at the end, due to a go around, then that's just how it is.

Do pilots add in time contingencies like a go around and possibility of diverting to an alternate if destination airfield is closed?. For example like fuel but now it’s Time to destination plus go around plus diversion to alternate plus 30 min post flight?.
Or declare an emergency?

It isn't an emergency.

If something that could not easonably be expected happens, then that's fine. Something like 30 minutes of holding that happens EVERY DAY, should be allowed for. If it turns into 45, then so be it.

 

[RSD]

You immediately eject, and leave the passengers to sort it out themselves.

Damn it - gotta clean coffee off the screen now!

 

[AviatorInsight]

Another simulator session complete. This sim was mainly directed at hot weather operations, so thundershower and windshear avoidance.

While it’s still fresh in my mind, here we go...

Day 1

F/O goes first, I had option scenario A or B. I chose A
A was:
MEL – ADL RW27. coughulonimbus in area (thunderstorm avoidance) so instead of following the SID I requested to maintain runway track and went around it. We got held at 5000’ for a TCAS event (Traffic avoidance) then got cleared to climb. Engine OVERHEAT, conducted the memory items, then that quickly escalated to a FIRE on ENG1, memory items conducted again, and after both bottles discharged FIRE light went out. All the usual handling items, stop climb, MAYDAY call with a turn back for MEL. All runways available, we chose 16ILS with a hold at the initial approach fix in case the fire lit up again we could abbreviate the hold and just go straight in. We set up for the approach, established inbound somewhere the glide slope failed so became localiser approach. Shortly before touchdown the engine fire light came on again so that led to an evacuation after landing.


CPT was similar except out of SYD - ADL and a Fuel filter bypass light through transition level. Was basically a contaminated fuel event that led to an immediate return.

Narrow runway ops at Sunshine Coast. Lined up 18, slow speed reject (about 60kts) then reset for high speed reject (10kts prior to V1).

Both did
1: departure MCY with WINDSHEAR,
2: After clear of windshear maintain 3000’ vector for GPS (RNAV RNP X for you aviation buffs out there) RWY18, for landing to cover narrow runway ops, then:
3: reset short final for WINDSHEAR on final
4: up to FL370 for stall recovery
5: jet upset (one nose high with a bank, the other nose low with a bank)
6: limited panel, this is a CASA requirement and all screens had to be failed where even me in the right seat had to fly on the standby instruments in front of the Captain.

Check over.

Day 2

This is the training day. I actually enjoyed this one more than yesterday. More of a management thing and to get us thinking and understand checklists.

Both scenarios were PER - KGI (Kalgoorlie). The Captain had a fuel leak which we identified on the climb and required an engine to be shut down before returning to PER. My scenario was a flap asymmetry, so at Flap 5 retraction, the left Flap jammed at 12° and the other at about 8°. This was a good exercise because it required the correct checklist. There was 3 to choose from. Definitely no rush to get back on the ground so we talked it out, and got back on the ground.

Then it was a bunch of box ticking exercises:
1. Low visibility takeoff. 125m visibility (Capt only)
2. Engine failures after take off (200ft).
3. Circuits.
4. Overspeed management.

End of Day 2. To keep me going, I’ve also got my annual line check in the aircraft on Wednesday, so if you happen to be on VA850 SYD-MEL or VA879 MEL-SYD please say hi so the checkie can’t ask questions on the ground.

 

[p--and--t]

You immediately eject, and leave the passengers to sort it out themselves.

Damn it - gotta clean coffee off the screen now!

Seems JB is getting more and more flippant as the retirement mode settles in . And that is not a bad thing after a long stressful career.

 

[serfty]

It's not even the most northerly route possible. I've been north of Brisbane, going to Melbourne from LA. And far further north of Hawaii.

The wind is the deciding factor. The plan will be run for many potential routes, and the cheapest/fastest route will be decided from that.

Well, this was not North of BNE, but for me, this was the most Northerly I can remember on OZ-LAX (Fri Night, QF95)

QF95 (QFA95) Qantas Flight Tracking and History 24-Jan-2020 (MEL / YMML-KLAX) - FlightAware

Track Qantas (QF) #95 flight from Melbourne Tullamarine to Los Angeles Intl

flightaware.com

 

[RooFlyer]

and after both bottles discharged FIRE light went out. All the usual handling items, stop climb, MAYDAY call with a turn back for MEL.

Could the Mayday call be debatable? If the engine fire light was out, ‘in theory’ the situation has stabilised so could a ‘pan pan’ be in order? Or does a fire, going or not ( as far as info at the time is concerned), always mean a mayday? Not questioning the call! Just wondering.

 

[jb747]

Seems JB is getting more and more flippant as the retirement mode settles in . And that is not a bad thing after a long stressful career.

I was probably always inclined that way, but I don't want to ruin good threads by displaced flippancy, so please pull me back into line where needed.

 

[I love to travel]

I was probably always inclined that way, but I don't want to ruin good threads by displaced flippancy, so please pull me back into line where needed.

Humour is always appreciated.

 

[jb747]

Could the Mayday call be debatable? If the engine fire light was out, ‘in theory’ the situation has stabilised so could a ‘pan pan’ be in order? Or does a fire, going or not ( as far as info at the time is concerned), always mean a mayday? Not questioning the call! Just wondering.

Always an interesting question. I think, for most of us, there would be an great deal of reluctance to ever reduce a call from Mayday to Pan. There is no benefit to those experiencing the issue, so why....?

Very few pilots ever declare a Mayday. Having taken that step, I don't see much reason to step back.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Could the Mayday call be debatable? If the engine fire light was out, ‘in theory’ the situation has stabilised so could a ‘pan pan’ be in order? Or does a fire, going or not ( as far as info at the time is concerned), always mean a mayday? Not questioning the call! Just wondering.

Yep this is often a question even between pilots. My reasoning for the Mayday is you’ve just used both bottles in one engine. Now there’s no more fire extinguishing agent should it reignite? So in this case I really didn’t want to be in the air any longer than I needed to and rather than have the urgency of a pan, I wanted the airspace to manoeuvre as required to get down with minimal track miles.

 

[Saab34]

AV do you operate the 737 in/ out of any CTAF Aerodromes?

 

[CaptainPersia]

Just wondering, do pilots often chat to other pilots while flying? Was seeing planes passing close to each other on Flightradar and this question came to mind!

 

[jb747]

Just wondering, do pilots often chat to other pilots while flying? Was seeing planes passing close to each other on Flightradar and this question came to mind!

Generally no, but one noisier nationality is a bit prone to it.

In any given area aircraft will have the same frequencies tuned. If there is an ATC agency, it will be that frequency, and another radio on 'guard', the emergency frequency. If there is no ATC nearby, then you may have 123.45 on one, and guard on the other. The 123 number is not officially used in many parts of the world, and can be used for quick chat. But it's supposed to be operational, and short. As everybody within hundreds of miles will hear whatever is said, chatting is a terrible display of bad manners. Very much the same as sitting in the middle of a lounge and using your phone on speaker.

Even ruder, is any chat on guard, and that will normally draw a very quick 'shut up' from somewhere in the sky.

 

[AviatorInsight]

AV do you operate the 737 in/ out of any CTAF Aerodromes?

Absolutely! There’s a lot of pilots that hate it, but I love it! It definitely takes me back. It definitely is a numbers game and there’s no nice landings on 30m strips, you’ve gotta put it down by the first 1/3 or you go around.