Ask The Pilot

[travelislife]

I have plenty! But just making curfew is not as exciting as missing it so here it goes...

This was a standard domestic day, 4 sectors, minimum turnarounds everywhere ending with a “curfew chaser“ (a flight that is scheduled to arrive within 20mins of curfew). Sign on was at 1pm, to do SYD-HBA-SYD-BNE-SYD. Once I’d rocked up to sign on, I checked the status of the aircraft and it was running late, what a great start!

I checked the turnaround times on my briefing report and we had 30mins in HBA, 40mins in SYD and 35mins in BNE with an extra 20mins up our sleeve before curfew. We thought, yep we can get this aircraft back on schedule (currently 20mins late).

As soon as the plane chocks on, the captain goes to do the walk around, while I got the flight plan and came up with a fuel figure to pass on when he got back. As soon as everyone got off the inbound flight I got the flight deck all set up, while cabin crew got into prepping the cabin. Unfortunately, when you run late, it’s VERY hard to make up time. With that we arrive into HBA still 20mins late. A full load of pax to take back to Sydney means we won’t be able to make up time on this sector. No problem we thought, if we can do a 20min turn in SYD we should be ok. We carried a bit more fuel and upped the cruise speed and lowered the altitude a little to try and beat some aircraft inbound from MEL.

As we got closer to SYD, the evening peak hour rush was evident. We got told to hold for at least 10mins. So now we’re 30 mins late. Well this was going well. We told operations on arrival that coming back now to SYD was going to be very tight and if they wanted to get a BNE based crew to fly back to SYD and we overnight in BNE after the next sector. We got a straight NO and that they’ll have us ready to go in BNE. Ok cool, lets get this show on the road. Another full load later and we’re now high tailing it into BNE. We manage to make up about 5mins on that sector (thanks to tailwinds and track shortening and a cancellation of speed restrictions on the descent).

This was going to be tight we now have 10mins up our sleeve to get back to SYD. On the turn in BNE, we only had about 20 pax as the others had been able to be moved onto the earlier flight knowing that we were running late. We managed to get the aircraft turned around in 25mins, and because we are within 20mins of curfew it’s company policy to carry an alternate (BNE/MEL, in this case it’s BNE), now we’re getting someone, and then...

On the pushback I hear a remark from another aircraft asking the ground controller if he’s “inside the gable markers” (gable markers are long white triangular markers that outline the edge of the runway complex. This is greater than the physical surface of the runway itself. If an aircraft is inside the markers then they’re considered to be on the runway) I looked at the captain and told him we might have a problem getting out. We confirmed with the ground controller too and turns out an aircraft had taken the wrong rapid exit and they have managed to snap their nose gear linkage during the very sharp turn.

So now we have an aircraft that’s disabled on the Rapid exit but infringing the runway meaning the runway is now closed. Inbound aircraft are being diverted. We called up operations again and asked if we can get a dispensation for SYD seeing as we are now going to be late getting in. “No joy” was the reply and were told to just give it a go anyway. We taxied out anyway in the hope they could get the aircraft towed away and we could go. There was a TT 320 waiting to depart for MEL, so we politely asked if we could push in given our situation. They held short and we taxied in front ready to go.

It took 18mins to move this aircraft, so 2mins up our sleeve now. We finally get cleared for an immediate take off. As soon as we’re airborne ATC ask us to contact the company. Once we’re at a safe altitude, I called them and they advised that they cancelled the flight. We thought it was a joke seeing as you can’t cancel the flight as we’re barreling down the runway!

We again ask for a dispensation and they said they were working on it but to now continue seeing as we were airborne. We went straight to 28,000ft and cranked up the speed to 0.805 Mach (basically bouncing off the maximum speed at that level).

ATC knew what we were up to and again gave us track shortening and speed cancellations. We managed to hold the 2mins up our sleeve given we were going into a headwind! I listen to the ATIS inbound and it’s still runway 16R. Great! We will make this as it’s a straight in approach. I asked SYD operations again for a dispensation just in case and we were told a hard NO because there were no environmental factors that made us late. Ok press on..still good.

Approach control in SYD ask what time we had for 16R. 1258 UTC (10:58pm). He wasn’t convinced and his screen was showing we would be 15sec late so he vectored us off the approach for a change onto runway 34L. The problem with 34L is there‘s a 20kt tailwind and the maximum for the 737 is 15knots. This is why 16R was the duty runway! That’s ok maybe it’ll die down at the threshold end and we could still get in, we’ve come this far.

By now we’re on final and ATC clear us to land with sneaky “good luck” thrown in. It looked good until at 200ft the clocked ticked over to 1300 UTC (11:00pm), we were done, the wind never got below 20kts and SYD airport curfew now in effect. Snookered.

A standard missed approach was made and we followed the filed plan back to BNE, this time at 39,000ft. We overnighted in BNE and pax’d back home the following day.

Sorry for the long post but that is definitely the most memorable one for me to date. Had we stayed on 16R we would have made it.



We’re not required to wear uniforms to sim sessions, or any ground training for that matter, whether that’s emergency procedures, security, etc.

Interesting! What was the fine to the company if you had landed? As obviously some significant costs returning to origin and putting everyone in hotels.

I have only had the one flight that went Origin to Destination and all the way back to origin. Was ADL-OLP flew all the way there for there to be an issue with the landing gear that we did a fly over of the runway at OLP and then returned to ADL!

 

[travelislife]

This is a rather sad sight...

Airliners.net

www.airliners.net

Very sad. Wonder what the monthly cost is having them sitting there and turning over ever now and again.

 

[jb747]

What was the fine to the company if you had landed? As obviously some significant costs returning to origin and putting everyone in hotels.

Bear in mind that the company won't have broken the law. Nowhere in their rules will it say anything about ignoring curfews. The Captain will have done so, and I doubt that too many would assume any company would back them up.

The fine in Sydney was originally something in the order of $50k. I think it was Singair, that made the decision one night to ignore it, as the fine was a lot less than the costs. So the fine was increased to the better part of a million.

Very sad. Wonder what the monthly cost is having them sitting there and turning over ever now and again.

Not information that would be available to the pilots in general.

 

[Saab34]

Not great.....right? I was nervous after the 45 second mark.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Not great.....right? I was nervous after the 45 second mark.

Um...nope...at first it looked good and I actually thought they were going around until they basically stalled it onto the runway again. Not that we can tell, but I wonder how much runway they chewed up and if they were in fact “in the zone”.

 

[Saab34]

Would be interesting to see how close, or far off centreline they were.

Is it just me or is that a little fast, it seems a bit messy, when vacating onto the rapid.

 

[jb747]

Not great.....right? I was nervous after the 45 second mark.

There's a substantial increase in the sink rate a few seconds before the flare. I think it starts to unravel there.

The flare is well and truly overdone, and logically should have been taken around. But, the red mist has descended.

Would be interesting to see how close, or far off centreline they were.

It might not be all that bad. I suspect that the crosswind has come out somewhat as he nears the ground. Given the length of time he's in the air after the flare starts, just about any crosswind would have him in the grass.

Is it just me or is that a little fast, it seems a bit messy, when vacating onto the rapid.

On a dry runway it would be ok. But a wet one, no. They're great aircraft, but really lousy cars.

 

[defurax]

I've noticed this week that two Garuda flights were about a thousand feet lower than all other aircraft when doing the turn over Port Melbourne/Yarraville to align with MEL runway 34. At the end of the turn they were 1,700ft versus 2,700ft for other airlines. Is there a minimum altitude for that turn? There is obviously not much traffic these days, so I wouldn't think it's ATC giving different instructions.

 

[jb747]

I've noticed this week that two Garuda flights were about a thousand feet lower than all other aircraft when doing the turn over Port Melbourne/Yarraville to align with MEL runway 34. At the end of the turn they were 1,700ft versus 2,700ft for other airlines. Is there a minimum altitude for that turn? There is obviously not much traffic these days, so I wouldn't think it's ATC giving different instructions.

Got the flight numbers and dates?

 

[defurax]

Got the flight numbers and dates?

GA716 on 27 August and GA7170 today

 

[AviatorInsight]

I've noticed this week that two Garuda flights were about a thousand feet lower than all other aircraft when doing the turn over Port Melbourne/Yarraville to align with MEL runway 34. At the end of the turn they were 1,700ft versus 2,700ft for other airlines. Is there a minimum altitude for that turn? There is obviously not much traffic these days, so I wouldn't think it's ATC giving different instructions.

EDIT: I assumed it was coming from the north. Coming in from AKL, the WAREN7A looks like the STAR they did. The final segment before AKDEL on that arrival is also 2500ft, so the same still applies. They were at 2400ft before the turn.

The answer to this question will help with the use of a diagram. Coming in from the north, there’s essentially a series of “steps” that includes the minimum altitude on each leg.

In the first picture the lowest altitude an aircraft can be there is 2500ft which goes all the way to the waypoint AKDEL.




In the second picture from waypoint AKDEL, the next step stops at 1500ft. So if we think about a helicopter for a second, we fly to waypoint AKDEL at 2500ft and then the second we pass it we drop to 1500ft. In an aircraft though we obviously can’t do this and it’s also not very economical. So we try to fly a constant descent if we can.


The coding in the flight management computer will code the aeroplane at AKDEL to 2500ft and then fly level for about 2.5nm to intercept the glide path for 34. This also uneconomical. So I code the FMC to be at AKDEL at 3000ft and during the turn, I’ll start configuring and it’ll be a constant descent all the way.

Now, practically, the turn itself would be quite sharp to fly all the way to AKDEL and then start the turn. It would also mean that we would overshoot the final approach path. Not so much of a problem in Melbourne but it is at airports with parallel runways. So instead the aircraft bypasses the waypoint to make a nice smoother transition to final.

In regards to Garuda though, (and I’d have to check the FR24 track to see) to be at 1700ft by the end of that turn means that they would have been lower than 2500ft before reaching AKDEL. It’s a common trait I see with overseas airlines that they see the steps as a target altitude rather than a limit. At 1700ft they would intercept the final approach path at BOSGI (4nm from the runway).

Sorry it’s a bit of a longer answer, I turn into a pumpkin at midnight tonight, as my cyclic currency runs out and there’s no plan to get me current in the next roster, so I’ve got a bit of time on my hands.

 

[por930]

AI, good luck with the roster and I hope you are amongst the group of pilots remaining.

If you miss the currency cycle roster, does this mean you are no longer classed as on flying duties until you gain currency? To attain currency again after it has lapsed, is this several sessions in the sim?

 

[defurax]

EDIT: I assumed it was coming from the north. Coming in from AKL, the WAREN7A looks like the STAR they did. The final segment before AKDEL on that arrival is also 2500ft, so the same still applies. They were at 2400ft before the turn.

The answer to this question will help with the use of a diagram. Coming in from the north, there’s essentially a series of “steps” that includes the minimum altitude on each leg.

In the first picture the lowest altitude an aircraft can be there is 2500ft which goes all the way to the waypoint AKDEL.
View attachment 226452



In the second picture from waypoint AKDEL, the next step stops at 1500ft. So if we think about a helicopter for a second, we fly to waypoint AKDEL at 2500ft and then the second we pass it we drop to 1500ft. In an aircraft though we obviously can’t do this and it’s also not very economical. So we try to fly a constant descent if we can.
View attachment 226453

The coding in the flight management computer will code the aeroplane at AKDEL to 2500ft and then fly level for about 2.5nm to intercept the glide path for 34. This also uneconomical. So I code the FMC to be at AKDEL at 3000ft and during the turn, I’ll start configuring and it’ll be a constant descent all the way.

Now, practically, the turn itself would be quite sharp to fly all the way to AKDEL and then start the turn. It would also mean that we would overshoot the final approach path. Not so much of a problem in Melbourne but it is at airports with parallel runways. So instead the aircraft bypasses the waypoint to make a nice smoother transition to final.

In regards to Garuda though, (and I’d have to check the FR24 track to see) to be at 1700ft by the end of that turn means that they would have been lower than 2500ft before reaching AKDEL. It’s a common trait I see with overseas airlines that they see the steps as a target altitude rather than a limit. At 1700ft they would intercept the final approach path at BOSGI (4nm from the runway).

Sorry it’s a bit of a longer answer, I turn into a pumpkin at midnight tonight, as my cyclic currency runs out and there’s no plan to get me current in the next roster, so I’ve got a bit of time on my hands.

Thanks so much for the detailed answer!

Based on what you mention it appears GA716 was a little low.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Thanks so much for the detailed answer!

Based on what you mention it appears GA716 was a little low.
View attachment 226454

Just a little! Minimum at that point is 3000ft!
It’ll drop to 2500 soon after but even then they’re low!
Now just to clarify, it could have been visual conditions. But that doesn’t mean that they can break those limits unless ATC clear them for a visual approach (very unlikely for that carrier). Those limits are also imposed to keep the aircraft in controlled airspace. The lower limit is 2500ft and then 2000ft by AKDEL, then inside AKDEL it’s to ground level.

Seeing as it’s so quiet I’m sure ATC just let it slide, but I really do wonder how the FMC can code it like that, unless they’re manually intervening?

 

[AviatorInsight]

AI, good luck with the roster and I hope you are amongst the group of pilots remaining.

If you miss the currency cycle roster, does this mean you are no longer classed as on flying duties until you gain currency? To attain currency again after it has lapsed, is this several sessions in the sim?

Thank you. I hope so too. They apparently still don’t know how many aircraft they want in the interim so I’m still hanging on. They’ve already sent back 5 to the lessors for failing to reach an agreement.

So it expires tomorrow and no exemption has been given to extend it. CASA were only allowing this as operationally required and I mustn’t be in that pool.

So I’ll need a re entry into the cyclic program which I believe is a 3 day sim. One to get me back into the program and the other ones would be the current 2 day simulator cyclic.

 

[jb747]

Based on what you mention it appears GA716 was a little low.

Quite some years ago now, the aviation world realised that approaches with steps in them were inherently dangerous. So, the solution was to fly all approaches at a constant 3º. They are still promulgated with the "not below" altitudes, but they are limits, not targets. In the case of the RNAV approaches to 34 in Melbourne, that 3º gives you a height of 3215' at the start of finals. In the 380 that altitude was automatically coded in to the FMC when you selected the approach, and whilst you could fly the aircraft under it (as shown on AV's chart, the NB altitude is 2,500' on the last leg before the turn), there was no reason to do so.

I couldn't find an FR24 trace for the second GA arrival that you've mentioned, but I looked through quite a few others. Whilst I see no reason to go below 3,000' prior to finals, it would seem that many others do. Breaches of both the 3000T, and 2500T heights are easy to find, so not only are many unnecessarily low, some are illegally so.

 

[Franky]

Quite some years ago now, the aviation world realised that approaches with steps in them were inherently dangerous. So, the solution was to fly all approaches at a constant 3º. They are still promulgated with the "not below" altitudes, but they are limits, not targets. In the case of the RNAV approaches to 34 in Melbourne, that 3º gives you a height of 3215' at the start of finals. In the 380 that altitude was automatically coded in to the FMC when you selected the approach, and whilst you could fly the aircraft under it (as shown on AV's chart, the NB altitude is 2,500' on the last leg before the turn), there was no reason to do so.

I couldn't find an FR24 trace for the second GA arrival that you've mentioned, but I looked through quite a few others. Whilst I see no reason to go below 3,000' prior to finals, it would seem that many others do. Breaches of both the 3000T, and 2500T heights are easy to find, so not only are many unnecessarily low, some are illegally so.

JB - assuming your search was for fairly recent times, are these infractions being ignored by ATC as it’s relatively quiet, or for some time?. Allowing bad habits to creep in is no good idea. That said, your statement that these approach rules were being treated as targets in lieu of limits seems to show a bit of bracket creep.

 

[jb747]

JB - assuming your search was for fairly recent times, are these infractions being ignored by ATC as it’s relatively quiet, or for some time?. Allowing bad habits to creep in is no good idea. That said, your statement that these approach rules were being treated as targets in lieu of limits seems to show a bit of bracket creep.

These were all in the last week. I simply had a look for a couple of airlines that I considered likely.

I don’t know that ATC would be even seeing what is happening. I expect that these aircraft have been given clearances to do the approach. It’s not really the controller’s job to then watch to see that they fly it correctly.

It’s probably fair to say that some airlines make a bit of a habit of similar behaviour. And it’s why whatever goes on in the cabin has so little to do with whether I think an airline is okay, or not.

 

[747sp]

Hi JB in the thread about your favourite 747 you had a photo of you flying OJK back home. Above the captain there looks like a large black knob separate from the control panel. What is it and the other bits around it .

 

[flyingfan]

Hi JB in the thread about your favourite 747 you had a photo of you flying OJK back home. Above the captain there looks like a large black knob separate from the control panel. What is it and the other bits around it .

I was curious about that too (I thought it was a video camera linked to the black box - which I know it isn't) and some searching seemed to suggest it's a light, similar to those in the passenger cabin, but hoping the pilots can confirm.