Ask The Pilot

[Saab34]

JB did you ever land the big bus on 27 in Melbourne? Seems rare.

Also would have apply any different technique for the big girl on a smaller runway like 27? As in wheels on the keys and not a moment at later? Ie- slam it down if it’s starting to float?

 

[ayebee]

I notice B789 VH-ZNI did a whole lot of short flights in last few days mostly from/to Sydney, but with a couple of Melbourne trips.
I am assuming these are for pilots to maintain / regain license status prior to the upcoming increase in international flights.

How long can a pilot go without a flight before the process gets "difficult" ?

 

[jb747]

JB did you ever land the big bus on 27 in Melbourne? Seems rare.

Personally I didn't use it unless the crosswind was in the order of 30 knots, but as the FO limit was 20, I'd let them operate to it to keep the sector. It wasn't especially limiting, but I had a aversion to using short runways, when a long one was available. When 34/16 was closed at one point, I still used the longest one available.

Also would have apply any different technique for the big girl on a smaller runway like 27? As in wheels on the keys and not a moment at later? Ie- slam it down if it’s starting to float?

Normal technique and limits was all that you required. Aim 1,200 feet in. Go around if it hasn't touched down by 2,000'. Aiming at the keys puts you in danger of going short, and is outside of the company limits. They had a lower threshold crossing limit of 50'. If a runway required anything other than normal technique, then you shouldn't be using it.

 

[jb747]

I notice B789 VH-ZNI did a whole lot of short flights in last few days mostly from/to Sydney, but with a couple of Melbourne trips.
I am assuming these are for pilots to maintain / regain license status prior to the upcoming increase in international flights.

From what I've heard, these flights are for pilots new to the aircraft, doing their conversions. Most would be from the 747.

How long can a pilot go without a flight before the process gets "difficult" ?

We've had people come back after 5 years away with medical/licence issues. Two year postings away from flying were not unusual in the military. Partially it's like riding a bike. I've been out for almost 3 years now, and I don't think I'd have too much trouble actually flying, but the procedures would need to be retrained, and my speed would be well off. And it varies with the people too. Some will need more than others. I'm pretty sure the training offered will be somewhat flexible.

 

[Quickstatus]

When 34/16 was closed at one point, I still used the longest one available.

But the only one left is 27/9
You mean go somewhere else?

Aiming at the keys puts you in danger of going short

Where would be the target?

 

[Saab34]

I note smaller aircraft they say the aiming point is the piano keys. So bigger RPT is there a different sort of advice as such?

 

[jb747]

But the only one left is 27/9
You mean go somewhere else?

In that instance the longest one available would be 27/09.

Where would be the target?

It would not change. 1,200 feet in. That puts the wheels at about 50' over the threshold.

Post automatically merged: Nov 1, 2021

I note smaller aircraft they say the aiming point is the piano keys. So bigger RPT is there a different sort of advice as such?

If I aimed at the threshold, the wheels would impact hundreds of feet short.

 

[747sp]

Hi JB I was wondering about crewing on the 767 for longer flights . Did Qantas have a pool of second officers for the longer flights and was it organising in a similar way to how you explained previously with the A380?
What was your longest flight on a 767

 

[jb747]

Hi JB I was wondering about crewing on the 767 for longer flights . Did Qantas have a pool of second officers for the longer flights and was it organising in a similar way to how you explained previously with the A380?
What was your longest flight on a 767

When they first put the 767 into service, there were no SOs, and they used a second FO for long flights. I don’t think that lasted very long, and it was a fading memory by the time I got to the aircraft in ‘92.

SOs have a couple of effects on the flights. Individual flight and duty times can be longer, but in some cases they allow for shorter slips and more duty days in the week. So, basically they make scheduling dramatically more flexible.

 

[straitman]

A side line for those interested.

When the 767 was first built they had provision for a flight engineer. Then the FAA decertified them for operations without the Flight Engineer. Without looking it up about 30 were configured this way. Many were retrofitted to remove the station however several airlines including Ansett took delivery and operated their initial aircraft with a flight engineer.

 

[jb747]

When the 767 was first built they had provision for a flight engineer. Then the FAA decertified them for operations without the Flight Engineer. Without looking it up about 30 were configured this way. Many were retrofitted to remove the station however several airlines including Ansett took delivery and operated their initial aircraft with a flight engineer.

As much as I liked flight engineers, it was an aircraft that simply did not need them, and inserting them into the coughpit did nothing other than interrupt the normal flow between the pilots.

 

[torks]

From what I've heard, these flights are for pilots new to the aircraft, doing their conversions. Most would be from the 747.

Would there be any reason they are doing them in the aircraft as opposed to the sim?

 

[jb747]

Would there be any reason they are doing them in the aircraft as opposed to the sim?

They would have done the complete training in the sim. But, the aircraft remain slightly different, and simulations, no matter how good, are not the same as the real world. In more normal times, pilots still flew the aircraft before being let loose, but the only difference was that there were passengers on board.

Sim sessions don’t flow like the real world either. You don’t hop into the sim and spend 45 minutes getting ready to go, with interruptions from engineering, cabin crew, and various others every few minutes. The sims don’t waste time, and concentrate on important items, but out in the real world, the flow from item to item is important.

 

[justinbrett]

Where would be the target?

In most countries - the aiming point (and yes, that's the technical term). It has standard markings (two fat bars).



Distance from the keys vary depending on runway length, but for 2400m+ (most runways @jb747 is talking about) it's 400m - or 1300FT. The thinner bars mark 150m increments from the keys (hence why the fat bars are not centred, as it goes 150, 300, 450, 600, 750, 900)

The US is not a fan of ICAO rules so the FAA defines the aiming point at approximately 1000FT (which is the ICAO standard for 1800-2399m runways). Other than that more or less the same, except their touchdown zone markings go 3/AP/2/2/1/1 pairs of stripes (instead of single pairs of stripes) and are measured in 500FT increments (which is pretty close to 150m so more or less the same).

 

[Quickstatus]

Where on the runway did QF32 land?

The reason the aiming point is offset down the runway from the keys because by aiming at the AP, is because it gives the pilot a certain safety margin in case the aircraft actually lands short of the AP?.
Or aim for a certain point down the runway because the aircraft will actually touchdown shorter than that point? - in whihc case it will differ between aircraft types?

Can the aircraft break any ground equipment if it lands on the keys with the usual 3º glideslope

 

[jb747]

Where on the runway did QF32 land?

About 1,400 feet in...

The reason the aiming point is offset down the runway from the keys because by aiming at the AP, is because it gives the pilot a certain safety margin in case the aircraft actually lands short of the AP?.

You cannot operate with no margin. Not all pilots, systems or days, are created equal, and there will always be a scatter of touchdown points, even with automatic landings.

Or aim for a certain point down the runway because the aircraft will actually touchdown shorter than that point? - in whihc case it will differ between aircraft types?

The aim point does differ. I always aimed just beyond the 1,000' markers, basically at 1,200. Wheel impact, with no flare would have been about 500' earlier than that. With a good flare (i.e. one that simply arrests the sink rate, and does not float at all), main gear touchdown moves to about the aim point. Of the 3 heavies that I flew, aim point for the 767 was about 300 feet shorter than the 747. The A380 was basically between them.

Can the aircraft break any ground equipment if it lands on the keys with the usual 3º glideslope

If it lands properly, then no.

 

[jb747]

Re QF32‘s landing about 1,400 feet in.

Whilst that is slightly long, it’s a very good effort given the control and configuration issues that they had. He was critical for runway length, but I don’t think they realised just how critical until they were actually trying to brake. Aiming a bit shorter might have been a way of getting back some usable runway, but it would have meant that all of the aircraft systems that normally help you hold the correct glide path and aim point would have been useless (ILS, PAPI), and would have made both short and or floating landings more likely.

There’s a video on youtube showing the landing from the port side of the aircraft, and at about the touchdown point it goes past a very distinctive concrete object on the side of the runway, which you can easily find on a satellite view of the runway.

 

[justinbrett]

Can the aircraft break any ground equipment if it lands on the keys with the usual 3º glideslope

The glideslope (as in the transmitter that is part of the ILS) is aligned to the aiming point and usually 3 degrees (can be steeper). If you follow that down to the ground (eg for an autoland) you won't hit the keys. On the approach plate it will state the TCH (Threshold Crossing Height), which as below for YSSY 34L, is 52 feet. This is a relative height, so actual height for 34L is 66 feet.



But if you were descending on a 3 degrees decent profile to the keys on a visual approach, you would still not hit anything as the clearance starts from the end of the strip initially at 2 degrees and later at 2.5 degrees, as per the following diagram.

Usually if an aircraft lands well short, the first thing to go will be some of the HAIL globes (High Intensity Approach Lighting - aka the Christmas Tree) - but you've got bigger problems if that happens.

 

[Saab34]

Gents any good shots of some ugly coughulonimbus from your offices?

 

[jb747]

Gents any good shots of some ugly coughulonimbus from your offices?

Not really. Mostly you kept well away from them. I've got some radar shots, but not terribly ugly.