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- Oct 13, 2013
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Surely that pic is a joke.I hear on the www that some pilots got pinged for placing coffee on the controls
Which invites the question:
How many cup holders are there on a flight deck?
I understand this is a 737. What are the grey levers the cup is resting on?
View attachment 319620
What's the flight state of the other controls in view?
Unfortunately no.Surely that pic is a joke.
Yep absolutely. I love FR24. I use it to find my inbound aircraft, and if I’m changing aircraft, when it is going out again so I know whether to shut down, or expect to hand it over to the next crew.AV, do you reference third party flight tracking flights like FR24, or one of the others, while on shift for any useful means? I was sitting up front on a Rex flight recently and I noted the pilot checking FR24 and OzRunways before we departed, I assume checking for any unverified traffic in the local area?
I don’t know what’s dumber, the fact that these guys thought it was a good idea, or the fact that they decided to do it and take a photo, and post it online!I hear on the www that some pilots got pinged for placing coffee on the controls
Which invites the question:
How many cup holders are there on a flight deck?
I understand this is a 737. What are the grey levers the cup is resting on?
And of course a spilled cup of coffee 'killed' Rod Taylor and everyone else, except for Suzanne Pleshette, on the plane he was piloting in the 1964 film "Fate is the Hunter".My wife used to track all of my flights with FR24. I used it for interesting events, and tracking the aircraft I was waiting for in Dubai. Never heard of Ozrunways, but the Jeppesen worked for what I needed.
Even having your hand near the start levers would make me nervous. The cup of coffee is simply crazy.
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This is known as thrust lever stagger, and can be a PITA in some aircraft. In most new aircraft the engines have fully digital engine control, but in older ones there can be substantial mechanical linkage between the levers and the engine control system. No two engines are ever exactly the same. So, you have the difference between the engines, and various amounts of slop (for want of a better word) leading to different thrust lever positions for the same power setting.In the "coffee" photo why are the #1 and #2 engine thrust levers not perfectly aligned? Does the AutoThrottle set non-symmetrical thrust in cruise to compensate for other factors or is it just a fit and finish thing that they don't align perfectly?
A very comprehensive and interesting reply. Thanks.This is known as thrust lever stagger, and can be a PITA in some aircraft. In most new aircraft the engines have fully digital engine control, but in older ones there can be substantial mechanical linkage between the levers and the engine control system. No two engines are ever exactly the same. So, you have the difference between the engines, and various amounts of slop (for want of a better word) leading to different thrust lever positions for the same power setting.
You also need to realise that an autothrottle moves the thrust levers, but does not itself control the engine power. When the autothrottle wants say, TO/GA, it advances the levers until one engine hits the limit (or target power setting), and then it stops. One of the pilots will then push the lower engine‘s lever forward to match the power. Matching the power up used to be the domain of the flight engineers. On the 767 (other than OGV) up to 30 mm difference between the lever position at the same power setting, was common.
OGV (QF’s last new 767) was different because it had FADEC, a fully digital engine control. It was on all of the 747-400s but not the concurrent 767s. With that system engines would basically talk to each other, and the thrust lever system, and so remained matched as long as the levers were at least in proximity to each other. If you pulled one lever on a 747-400 back about an inch (in the cruise), the engine would initially roll back a bit, and the others would roll up to balance the total power. Then it would decide you were an idiot, and match all of the power settings, leaving that one lever an inch out of alignment. But, if you moved it a bit more it would fall out of the range, and the system would decide you might know what you were doing, and simply follow the throttle. In the 747-400, the engine levers were being moved by the system to match the power being demanded by the FADEC.
Airbus takes this a step further by decoupling thrust lever position with the power for 99% of the time, with the levers simply sitting at various gates, irrespective of the engines’ power settings. One extreme case comes up in alpha protection, in which the thrust levers could be at idle, with the autothrust disengaged, and yet the engines will automatically roll up to TO/GA whilst the levers still sit at the idle position (if it detects an extreme angle of attack, i.e. stall).
There are other differences between various implementations of FADEC. For example on the 747-400 as you rolled on to the runway, and selected your takeoff power, you could literally slam the levers forward, and the thrust would remain symmetrical. The FADECs would ensure that the slowest engine to spool up controlled all of their accelerations, and so ensure the power was symmetrical. The otherwise very automatic 380 did not do this, and quite a bit of care had to be exercised with the initial spool up on the runway (below about 70%), as the engines could spool up at very different rates and lots of differential power at low speeds can cause severe directional control issues.
The stagger will remain unless the autothrust system happens to demand ‘idle’ in which case they’ll both end up aligned when it hits the stops. The pilots will match things up occasionally, but it’s not something you need to be doing constantly. It‘s important when limit settings are being demanded, but otherwise a slight difference doesn’t matter. The next question that then comes up is that if you’re going to match the engines in the cruise, what setting (EPR, RPM, fuel flow, temperature) do you choose to match?A very comprehensive and interesting reply. Thanks.
So in the photo, the levers will have been moved together by the AT and then a pilot will have increased the left one manually a bit so their power output matched? What happens when the AT decides another change in power is required, do they move with the same stagger or go back to being in line? i.e. are the pilots of a 737 having to make small adjustment to one power lever after each AT change?
So in the end it was all Suzanne’s fault.And of course a spilled cup of coffee 'killed' Rod Taylor and everyone else, except for Suzanne Pleshette, on the plane he was piloting in the 1964 film "Fate is the Hunter".
Do you know if the engine manufacturers have tested the scenario of a actual on-fire engine is kept at some thrust level?Even if really on fire, it’s almost certainly still producing power.
Never heard of Ozrunways
Firstly the movie being discussed had the engine being shut down, and converting the aircraft into a glider based upon a FALSE fire warning. If it’s the last engine you have, you’d really want to be trying to confirm things before shutting down the only engine remaining.Do you know if the engine manufacturers have tested the scenario of a actual on-fire engine is kept at some thrust level?
Might there be a chance that it might go bang in a very bad way if kept operating while on fire?