Ask The Pilot

[TheRealTMA]

Nope. It’s 11pm sharp. I have asked for dispensation before only to be told that the company couldn’t get one but to try and make curfew anyway. We got track shortening, high speed climbs/descents and at 500ft on final we got told it just ticked over to 11pm and we got our landing clearance cancelled and told to go around. So we clicked the TO/GA switches twice (to give maximum thrust) and made as much noise as we could on our way back to BNE.

Conversely at the other end we were 15 seconds too early before 6am and got sent around (again with maximum thrust to wake everyone up) before coming around for another approach.

Somewhat DYKWIA poor behaviour to residents?

 

[jb747]

JB, what ramifications does this have for crew hours, extra crews, etc.?

Personally, I think the entire concept is dumb. The first silly part is that in a world in which fuel efficiency is supposedly important, this sort of flying is anything but.

There won't be extra crew beyond what it used now. One Captain, one FO, two SOs. I haven't seen the crew rests, but doubt that they'll be anywhere near as decent as the QF 380s (other airlines differ).

But, don't worry, there will never be a crew fatigue accident. They've historically always been written off as crew error.

Some days will be good. Crew will get sleep and weather will be fine. ATC helpful. And on others, none of those stars will align. Sitting behind dead tired pilots as they try to negotiate an approach to London in February is something I'll happily leave to others.

 

[jb747]

Somewhat DYKWIA poor behaviour to residents?

I understand the sentiment entirely. But, TO/GA would make less noise than reduced thrust, which is why many noise affected places mandate it. The climb is steeper, and the noise is located close to the airport.

 

[Franky]

Somewhat DYKWIA poor behaviour to residents?

Nnnhhh - the rest of the world puts up with 24/7 airports, and every passenger that flies to or from SYD overflies, lands, or takes off from them at all times of the day and night, with no thought for those affected. Perth had to accept red eyes to SYD and all the international flights that landed here en route to SYD at god-awful times from way back.

 

[ksksks]

Out of Interest, what is they leeway arriving into Sydney in curfew, 11pm.

Shirley planes land 5 or 10 past 11?
Would be an early call to divert elsewhere and a big hassle to pax.

A fine etc

As AviatorInsight said above, the times are strictly 11pm to 6am for landing.

There are exceptions though. Low-noise freighters, small props, emergency aircraft, Polair, RFDS etc can all operate during curfew hours. Additionally a handful of RPT flights (QF2, SQ221, BA15) can land between 5am and 6am during non-daylight saving times, but only if landing 34 direction is within aircraft limits.

You could expect to make the deadline then weather or something delays you slightly. Ramifications?

In this particular scenario a dispensation is sometimes available. Applications are assessed based on nature (eg unforeseen weather, ATC delays, ground stops, offloading baggage etc) and timing of the delay.

Here is an example of applications over a 2 month period:
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/tabling-report-1-2024.pdf

34L is normally required to be the landing runway when landing dispensations are approved, but this is not always the case. On 19th December as an example, wind was a southerly 20-30kt with wet runway, so 16R was made available "if operationally required" for the late arriving aircraft... Malaysian, Scoot and Etihad all confirmed operationally required so landed 16R.
34R arrs+16L deps has also been used when 34L was unavailable due runway works.

You wouldn't want to land without a dispensation though, fine at the moment is $1.1m.

 

[RSD]

Personally, I think the entire concept is dumb. The first silly part is that in a world in which fuel efficiency is supposedly important, this sort of flying is anything but.

Mainly not fuel efficient because of the huge amount of fuel that you have to take to make the distance and the fuel consumption penalty because of all that extra weight?

 

[AviatorInsight]

Somewhat DYKWIA poor behaviour to residents?

While it may come across that way (and I understand what you are saying), but for the sake of a few seconds, rather than just let us land and accept a roll through so we could use idle reverse thrust would have made less noise than sending us around.

For departure from Sydney, the cutoff for departure was having requested a taxi clearance (and not having done so in your car on the way to the airport).

ATC one night were extremely helpful in getting us out of SYD after curfew. I had been called in and rushed to the aircraft to get a flight out to MEL.

We were just waiting on the load sheet and the clock was fast approaching 11pm. So when I got our airways clearance I also requested pushback and taxi at the same time. The controller knew what I was doing and gave us all of the clearances in one transmission with a comment that we “no longer need to rush”. We were about number 8 to depart anyway and got airborne at around 11:25pm.

 

[OZDUCK]

Nnnhhh - the rest of the world puts up with 24/7 airports, and every passenger that flies to or from SYD overflies, lands, or takes off from them at all times of the day and night, with no thought for those affected. Perth had to accept red eyes to SYD and all the international flights that landed here en route to SYD at god-awful times from way back.

Don't knock Perth 24/7 operations. I picked up plenty of overtime and shift payments because of that - admittedly for international operations.

 

[jb747]

Mainly not fuel efficient because of the huge amount of fuel that you have to take to make the distance and the fuel consumption penalty because of all that extra weight?

The 350 might manage better than this, but a rule of thumb for any extra fuel that you put on was that you'd burn it entirely in 24 hours.

 

[jb747]

There's no end of amusement in news/youtube etc showing crosswind landings that they describe in glowing terms. Latest is a 380 landing with a very solid crosswind, with all of the drift intact at touchdown. Whilst you can land a 747 that way, you cannot do it with a 380. There is a 5º limit on drift at touchdown. So, basically these heroic landings have possibly overstressed the undercarriage, but you can also place bets to it not being written up, or inspected.

 

[RSD]

There's no end of amusement in news/youtube etc showing crosswind landings that they describe in glowing terms. Latest is a 380 landing with a very solid crosswind, with all of the drift intact at touchdown. Whilst you can land a 747 that way, you cannot do it with a 380. There is a 5º limit on drift at touchdown. So, basically these heroic landings have possibly overstressed the undercarriage, but you can also place bets to it not being written up, or inspected.

Which airline was that?

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Just watched the newly released "The Blue Angels" documentary on Amazon Prime. Lots of interesting sequences including some historic footage from back in the 70's when they used the A-4F's. Had the opportunity to see one of the Blue Angel displays in San Diego during the late 80's after they transitioned from the A-4s to F/A18's. The demonstration pilots are made up of US Navy and one slot for a US Marine Corps pilot. @jb747 - were you ever part of the RAN A4 Checkmate or Ramjets aerobatic team?

 

[RooFlyer]

This is mostly a FR24 question, but relating to pilot's experience & opinions on it.

On the evening of the 8th, flying CTS to TPE on a B777, it was pretty bumpy almost the entire 4 hour trip. As in, if you were standing in an aisle you would need to hang on with both hands for maybe 1/4 of the time, hang on with one hand for most of the rest. The seat belt sign stayed on the whole journey.

After we levelled out, we were just skimming the top of (I think) the main coughulous/strato-form cloud layer - there was some thin high-level cirrus-type above. As the bumps continued, I wondered why they were persisting at the cloud interface and not seeking some calmer air.

Over the next few hours, when I peeked out the blinds I noticed first we had risen above the main cloud layer (I can only say 'by a fair way' - quite a wide field of view down to the tops) but the bumps continued. Other times we were closer to the cloud top and then higher again. Apologies for the non-technical vagueness.

I was surprised to see on the FR24 trace that there appeared to be no change in altitude during main cruise, while there was quite a bit of resolution on the ground speed trace.





So, some questions, please.

* Is the flat altitude trace reality, or does FR24 assume a bit? If the flat trace is true then I guess the clouds were rising and falling

* In general, what flexibility is usually available to go to a new flight level in search of calmer air? Its a busy route; this taken about the same time of day



* Is the speed trace what you would expect in a turbulent atmosphere?

* Is the cloud top a particularly bumpy place to be, in general? Not talking about thunder-type clouds

 

[ayebee]

This youtube channel often has clickbait title / thumbnails, but in this case it proves correct....
Wondering what the pilots here think about the first clip.

 

[jb747]

Which airline was that?

It was Etihad, but easy enough to find the same for many others.

Just watched the newly released "The Blue Angels" documentary on Amazon Prime. Lots of interesting sequences including some historic footage from back in the 70's when they used the A-4F's. Had the opportunity to see one of the Blue Angel displays in San Diego during the late 80's after they transitioned from the A-4s to F/A18's. The demonstration pilots are made up of US Navy and one slot for a US Marine Corps pilot. @jb747 - were you ever part of the RAN A4 Checkmate or Ramjets aerobatic team?

I never did any formation aeros. The formation teams weren’t around in my time, though they were really just a bunch of the boys whom the boss considered expendable. I do know a bloke who was CO Blue Angels. He did an exchange with us for a couple of years. I saw them perform in their A-4s over San Francisco. Wonderful to watch.

 

[jb747]

So, some questions, please.

* Is the flat altitude trace reality, or does FR24 assume a bit?

Whilst you may feel that there’s a lot of vertical motion in turbulence, it’s generally in the order of inches, not even feet. So, yes, a dead level trace makes perfect sense.

If the flat trace is true then I guess the clouds were rising and falling.

They do.

* In general, what flexibility is usually available to go to a new flight level in search of calmer air? It’s a busy route; this taken about the same time of day.

You don’t go randomly searching. That’s actually a pretty rough part of the world anyway, so it wouldn’t be unusual for most levels to have some bumps. As there are aircraft at all levels, ATC will be able to get a ride report for you, so you’ll be able to find out what it’s like without having to look yourself.

* Is the speed trace what you would expect in a turbulent atmosphere?

It contains no surprises.

* Is the cloud top a particularly bumpy place to be, in general? Not talking about thunder-type clouds

As often as not. Something changes in the atmosphere for the cloud to disappear. Anywhere there’s a change it can be bumpy…but, as I said above, this is a particularly bumpy place.

 

[jb747]

As I write this, I’m sitting at Sydney airport. For the first time in 5 years. Weirdest bus ride I’ve ever had. Landed. Had to wait 10 minutes for bus. Another 10 for everyone to get on board. It then drove 50 metres (really), from one bay to the next, and we all got off. And my next flight is late. I might wait another 5 years.

 

[RSD]

As I write this, I’m sitting at Sydney airport. For the first time in 5 years. Weirdest bus ride I’ve ever had. Landed. Had to wait 10 minutes for bus. Another 10 for everyone to get on board. It then drove 50 metres (really), from one bay to the next, and we all got off. And my next flight is late. I might wait another 5 years.

Doesn't sound like your trip is off to a good start!

 

[RooFlyer]

Whilst you may feel that there’s a lot of vertical motion in turbulence, it’s generally in the order of inches, not even feet. So, yes, a dead level trace makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the various explanations. In this one, I was assuming that the aircraft was rising and falling for calmer air, and thinking that wasn't reflected in the trace. But with the cloud-top changing levels, the aircraft was maintaining its FL.

How does an aircraft maintain its flight level? (What does it measure?)

And while the 'conversation' is about seat belt signs & management of them, on that China Air flight, the SB sign was on the entire time (4 hour flight) but after about two hours, toilet runs were allowed, at least during calmer patches in J.

 

[Quickstatus]

but a rule of thumb for any extra fuel that you put on was that you'd burn it entirely in 24 hours.

Please explain....