ATO warns business owner over loyalty points from cards

[ermen]

I will.
If you would send the mods your personal details (and they will contact me), it will make it easier for me to serve papers on you.

And if there is any competent lawyers here on AFF, please PM if you would like to run the case.

 

[Steady]

And if there is any competent lawyers here on AFF, please PM if you would like to run the case.

Asking a lawyer if they are competent......

 

[ermen]

Asking a lawyer if they are competent......

Trying to see what I can flush out

 

[burmans]

Whilst Im sure that you think that this is all OK and doing no harm, getting the ATO to refund you in a different method to how you paid is a breach for them of their agreement with the Bank and their merchant agreement.

Count yourself lucky that all you got was a phone call.



I give you an A+ for ingenuity for both of these creative methods of obtaining points however this is also fraud my friend.

You may not have noticed but the OP is not a party to the agreement between the ATO and their bank.

 

[burmans]

Could be construed as dishonesty when by virtue of the BAS lodgement you are advised exactly how much you owe the ATO.

And have you ever asked the ATO if they have a problem with anyone prepaying them? This pseudo legal stuff doesn't really help anyone.

 

[drron]

And have you ever asked the ATO if they have a problem with anyone prepaying them? This pseudo legal stuff doesn't really help anyone.

And here was I thinking I was watching an argument between tax lawyers!:shock:

 

[Nutcase]

I will.
If you would send the mods your personal details (and they will contact me), it will make it easier for me to serve papers on you.

Edit: why don't you send me your details directly and stop hiding behind your internet mask? It will save the cost of getting court orders for AFF and your ISP.

You are getting defensive and making ridiculous demands of a random stranger on the internet who uses Pam Ann as their avatar

This ATO pre payment scam must be bigger than I thought.

I look forward to hearing from the CSI team shortly in "The case of Nutcase and ermen"

 

[CJEMNMAC]

The best bit is that as of 2016 ( I am not sure but early in the year ) the tax office changed their system to allow you to pre pay tax as often as you like and as much as you like.

Based on the premise of " expected tax debt " and helping business manage tax liability.

Even now, the ATO website allows such a practice. This is an part of the text from the ATO


A tax pre-payment is a payment you make in advance of an expected tax bill. You can make pre-payments at any time and as often as you like to make it easier for you to manage your tax. All you need to do is:

1. get your payment reference number (PRN)
2. estimate the amount of tax to pay using our online tools and calculators
3. make a tax pre-payment using any payment method.

Any payments made towards your tax before they are due will remain on your account unless you, or your agent, request a refund.



Hardly fraudulent..

 

[CJEMNMAC]

Y
This ATO pre payment scam must be bigger than I thought.

see post #108

 

[Nutcase]

Here's the problem (post #73)

Reminds me of these stories:

1. Back in the day, I used to churn credit card points via the ATO. I just overpayed my income tax account and asked for a refund of the excess amount (by the way you can do this). Did it a few times (churned a few hundred thousand lol), and then some guy from the ATO called up and asked what I was doing. Told him exactly what I was doing (for points) and he told me I could only do it that once and not to do it again. Then I did it again, and he ended up reversing the transaction back to my credit card. See I don't know why he had to interfere. From my perspective, I was not breaking any laws, and I was using perfectly legitimate means, within the rules, that the ATO had set up to achieve my aims. ATO was not making a loss. But no, an overzealous bureaucrat had to interfere, for no apparent (and legal) reason. In fact, I think his method of refund, was not within the rules of the ATO at the time (i.e. only bank transfer or cheque allowed and not credit card)

2. Or I was recently selling discounted wish gift cards on ozbargain at a good discount with many happy customers. Then the mods decide to shut it down because the "classified ad system was not designed for such a thing". Stupid decision really.

This is not pre paying Tax based on "expected tax debt" which is a legitimate tax payment.

This is an admission of a pre meditated way of gaining a benefit from using an ATO loophole regarding refunds on credit cards.The ATO told him not to do it.

"Told him exactly what I was doing (for points) and he told me I could only do it that once and not to do it again. Then I did it again."

 

[serfty]

Here is a thing, while "manufactured spending" may breach t&c of a rewards program, it is hardly fraudulent or illegal.

At worst a reward program may decide they no longer wish to have an association with a member.

 

[Nutcase]

Here is a thing, while "manufactured spending" may breach t&c of a rewards program, it is hardly fraudulent or illegal.

At worst a reward program may decide they no longer wish to have an association with a member.

I could let it slide if it wasn't a government body but its also the ATO and the poster has admitted to doing it several times with hundreds of thousands of dollars (with a free lol for goodwill)

Thats some serious stuff there.

If it was a retailer, a supermarket whatever. But the ATO? Not the best people play with something like this.

 

[CJEMNMAC]

Here's the problem (post #73)



This is not pre paying Tax based on "expected tax debt" which is a legitimate tax payment.

This is an admission of a pre meditated way of gaining a benefit from using an ATO loophole regarding refunds on credit cards.The ATO told him not to do it.

"Told him exactly what I was doing (for points) and he told me I could only do it that once and not to do it again. Then I did it again."

So from the ATO perspective once is fine and not a problem but a second time is not ok...

If this practice is fraudulent, ATO is party to it ( allow it once )...if it is not fraudulent then it is simply an ATO rule of not allowing it by refunding the customer...

 

[Nutcase]

So from the ATO perspective once is fine and not a problem but a second time is not ok...

If this practice is fraudulent, ATO is party to it ( allow it once )...if it is not fraudulent then it is simply an ATO rule of not allowing it by refunding the customer...

The "do it once" is clearly a reference to the refund but if you want to try this yourself, see how you go.

 

[CJEMNMAC]

The "do it once" is clearly a reference to the refund but if you want to try this yourself, see how you go.

not clearly at all..but this is your interpretation and that is fine

I could let it slide if it wasn't a government body but its also the ATO and the poster has admitted to doing it several times with hundreds of thousands of dollars (with a free lol for goodwill)

Thats some serious stuff there.

If it was a retailer, a supermarket whatever. But the ATO? Not the best people play with something like this.

Surely you will stand by your posts and "fraudulent" claims. Fraud is fraud

I am sorry, but if you consider stuff like this as fraudulent it is not acceptable to do it to a supermarket or anyone else..

You cant have it both ways

 

[Steady]

I could let it slide if it wasn't a government body

You could let it slide... you have great authority

 

[ermen]

So from the ATO perspective once is fine and not a problem but a second time is not ok...

If this practice is fraudulent, ATO is party to it ( allow it once )...if it is not fraudulent then it is simply an ATO rule of not allowing it by refunding the customer...

So to get the facts clear. I did it a few times using the ATO published processes (as someone had posted above), paid some $$$ into my income tax PRN +0.54bps (which was their cost recovery on the RBA CC facility) and it was fine, the excess tax credit to my income tax account was rightly refunded to me via EFT under the processes after requesting it.
Then I did it again and requested a refund as usual, then a Mr T called from the ATO asked me what I was doing. I told him I was churning CC points. He said he would let this transfer via EFT go through, but he wouldn't let me do it again. I tried to push my luck the next time - the refund then got processed via credit card reversal. So that was the end of ATO manufactured spend. Lol. ATO was actually the perfect vehicle / organisation to do this because they were accustomed to handling large dollars in and out without batting an eyelid*. And the rules were pretty clear. And I wasn't worried about an audit because my tax affairs were in very good order. Too bad I didn't have the fortune (or misfortune) of running a business with BAS where you can periodically pay the ATO using your CC

Obviously people can't do it now because ATO spend doesn't earn points for the vast majority of cards.

I then found another method of MS, which I thought would've gone on for a little while (this involved the CBA - I can share another time), but then that method stopped. MS in Australia is virtually non-existent these days.


Edit: *so I checked the ATO credit card portal for old time's sake. Wow! The max payment by credit card is a cool $20,000,000. How many cards can tolerate that? Probably only an Amex Centurion. Imagine the points earned on that transaction...

 

[ermen]

You are getting defensive and making ridiculous demands of a random stranger on the internet who uses Pam Ann as their avatar

This ATO pre payment scam must be bigger than I thought.

I look forward to hearing from the CSI team shortly in "The case of Nutcase and ermen"

You have categorically stated fraud in three posts, and reiterated that statement in two or three subsequent posts.
That is a serious allegation.
Defensive? Hardly not. What I take umbrage in is that you are impinging on my character and reputation by stating that I have committed a criminal offence.

By all means, sue me for defamation.

I think I am winning in the court of popular opinion.
As mentioned, I am willing, and able to take you on in a court of law.

 

[oz_mark]

I think I am winning in the court of popular opinion.
As mentioned, I am willing, and able to take you on in a court of law.

In a case that future generations will cite as 'Ermen Vs Nutcase'

 

[Nutcase]

As mentioned, I am willing, and able to take you on in a court of law.

Go for it. I stand by the fact that, in my opinion based on my 25 years in banking you have committed a fraudulent act.

If you do take me on, it may be a good idea to stop using emoticons and LOL in your communications.

And if there is any competent lawyers here on AFF, please PM if you would like to run the case.

Im not seeing any takers for your case. This may have something to do with your stated location (Hong Kong)

I think I am winning in the court of popular opinion.

Im counting 2 supporters so far and zero lawyers.