Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

[33kft]

There is no additional resourcing requirement for even 100s of additional quarantine-free arrivals, so unsure what is meant to be handled Re: NZ arrivals. Vic Government can maintain their focus on the second wave.

Ha, if you say so. The irony of Victorians being told that international arrivals are all sorted and we have nothing to worry about does seem to be lost on you

Just in case anyone missed it: Last time we got into this mess due to Victorian Government mishandling of returnees. Now, 2 days before the restrictions are relaxed after 4 months of being isolated at home with minimal mobility and great disruption to lives, medical treatments, businesses and the economy we have our state government announcing publicly that they weren't even aware that those who are participating in a program that doesn't even include our state would directly fly there on the day of the first arrivals, and our State Government would not even know who they were or where they went, all the while residents of the metro area still can't travel more than 5km.

Now, revisit that question: What's there to worry about? they were processed inbound in another state.

Like I said, I don't subscribe to the fear but if you can't understand it, I have to question that. If you want domestic borders closed, this is how it happens.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Ha, if you say so. The irony of Victorians being told that international arrivals are all sorted and we have nothing to worry about does seem to be lost on you

Ha, clearly you not personally objecting and having something to worry about seems to be lost on you.

 

[RooFlyer]

More of the 'NZ arrivals scandal'. Does Premier Andrews need to instigate an inquiry? From the Oz (my bolding):

The Premier [Mr Andrews] accused federal authorities of ignoring his demand that Victoria be left out of the NZ travel bubble arrangements which took effect on Friday. As a consequence, 17 NZ travellers flew into Melbourne in breach of Covid restrictions and were allowed out into the community.

Premier Andrews on Saturday said Victoria was the “last to know” the travellers were coming, but Mr Tudge today said Victorian government officials had in fact authorised the travellers to come into Victoria. He said Victoria’s Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton had also attended expert panel meetings last week where the matter was discussed.

“The Victorian government was present when it was discussed, they were made aware that this was going to occur, they raised no objections in the meetings, and furthermore, expressly authorised individuals who were arriving into Sydney from New Zealand to be able to travel on into Victoria,” Mr Tudge said, calling on Mr Andrews to release emails confirming the decision.

“Now, I would ask the Premier today to reveal those emails and any other correspondence which shows, clearly, and demonstrably, that they authorised the people to come into Victoria.

So, I maintain my contention that Premier Andrew's big fuss was meant as a local distraction (but not on his own in that!)

 

[33kft]

So, I maintain my contention that Premier Andrew's big fuss was meant as a local distraction (but not on his own in that!)

Bit of Libs said Labor said politicking going on it seems:

More New Zealanders could come to Victoria despite Premier's objection

Health authorities have tracked down all of the more than 50 Kiwis, but more could be on their way to Melbourne.

www.theage.com.au

Still, I think it's a distraction from the topic. The plan was always framed as being an opt-in bubble where a state accepts the commonwealth's definition of a hotspot and gets the option to join, yet states which apparently haven't done so or even met that definition of a hotspot (eg Vic) are now in by default. I am no fan of how some state governments (most of a particular persuasion) have handled the border issues but in this case I can't help but be swayed in the direction of those states. They don't have a say in immigration matters, so ultimately they never had a call anyway, but it was framed as being opt-in and this seems decidedly not to have been the case.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Sutton said at the press conference that he arrived late to the meeting so missed the bits about NZ travellers.

I can sort of see where both sides are coming from. I can see “bubble” being interpreted as flying direct into the country with no quarantine so Vic saying they didn’t want to be part of it meant no flights direct into Melbourne, but once the people are in Australia then they get treated like Australians I.e. can travel to some states (including Vic), but not others without permits (like WA).

However Vic interpreted not being part of the bubble as no one could visit if the weren’t Aus nationals. Actually I suspect they just didn’t think about it at all and got a shock to hear lots of NZ visitors were descending on them. I can also understand why Melbourne residents are annoyed - they have been through a terrible time and are about to come out of it and they don’t want anything setting that back. I know each time there are cases in the south coast I get worried that something will creep into Canberra, even though I know that that is irrational as even if it does it will be dealt with.

It’s been a horrible 9 months and I think everyone is entitled to perhaps emotional rather than logical reactions.

 

[Pushka]

And also from the Vic Presser today - update on New Zealanders who have recently arrived in Australia arriving into Vic.

Will be allowed into Vic, just as the first 55-ish have been, but they want to be able to brief all recent arrivals from NZ as to what the restrictions in Vic are that need to be complied with.

I think that is entirely reasonable to have this briefing, except - I wouldnt stop at just briefing NZ people, but rather, extend it to everyone entering Victoria because in reality the restrictions are so very more stringent than anywhere else in Australia.

It seems to be that a huge broadbrush is painted to capture everyone, but possibility there could be a sharper definition as to the true target groups raising concern. Way back I had thought this was always to be the plan - target risk industry, schools, postcodes etc rather than simply shutting everything down each time. We must do better if we are going to last until there is a vaccine, or Covid dies out.

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2020

You’ll find a lot of victorians also aren’t happy about a bunch of kiwis turning up... apparently a whole heap have now lobbed into WA unannounced.

But if they follow the rules, then what is the issue here?

 

[Pushka]

That Victoria is not taking international arrivals, and that we have declined to be part of the bubble, yet we have bubble travellers arriving in our state unchecked. We’ve been in lockdown since July and we’re so close now, the last thing we need is randoms stuffing it up.

But you see, this is the real issue you may see raised with other states once the borders with Victoria are removed. We arent talking of randoms, of course, but there is a real fear that given how Victoria escalated rapidly, and pretty much tracing became impossible for a while, that maybe the opening of the borders presents the same issues.

And New Zealanders may be very welcome, well, they will be very shortly in SA as well.

 

[dajop]

Have we had any people from these flights turning up in SA yet? IIRC, no permit needed now for entry into SA from NSW. How long before someone drives across from Broken Hill or via the Sturt Hwy through Vic (which is allowed)?

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Way back I had thought this was always to be the plan - target risk industry, schools, postcodes etc rather than simply shutting everything down each time.

You keep trotting out this view in various reincarnations ( simply shutting everything down , full lockdown etc), despite the reality of what has and is being done throughout the second wave has indeed been to target risk industry, schools, postcodes etc. and well as to target many different cohorts in different ways.

This has continued to evolve as the situation demanded and as resources allowed.

As but one example the postcode of every mystery case within the last 14 days is now published every day, so that people in those postcodes know that may be at increased risk and so may choose to alter their behaviours ( avoiding contact, not going out, getting tested etc:

The 15 mystery cases in the last 14 days (2 Oct 2020 – 15 Oct 2020) are located in the following postcodes, 3015, 3024, 3025 (two cases), 3027, 3037, 3047, 3073 (two cases), 3081, 3128, 3130, 3147, 3173, 3175 and 3184.

 

[Pushka]

You keep trotting out this view in various reincarnations ( simply shutting everything down , full lockdown etc), despite the reality of what has and is being done throughout the second wave has indeed been to target risk industry, schools, postcodes etc. and well as to target many different cohorts in different ways.

This has continued to evolve as the situation demanded and as resources allowed.

As but one example the postcode of every mystery case within the last 14 days is now published every day, so that people in those postcodes know that may be at increased risk and so may choose to alter their behaviours ( avoiding contact, not going out, getting tested etc:

The 15 mystery cases in the last 14 days (2 Oct 2020 – 15 Oct 2020) are located in the following postcodes, 3015, 3024, 3025 (two cases), 3027, 3037, 3047, 3073 (two cases), 3081, 3128, 3130, 3147, 3173, 3175 and 3184.

Maybe you should do a rain check to see if other Victorians consider that they have experienced such significant and drastic changes to everything they do and want to do in life - everything that nourishes them like visits with family and time with friends - and not use a pendantic definition to delineate one type of lockdown from another.

Postcodes have not need used effectively to lock down trouble areas but simply to warn.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

And you keep trotting out the same lines that things haven't been shut down.

Perhaps you need to look up the meaning of word like everything and full?

And I have never stated that some things have not been shut down or have had to change the way they operate.

However Victoria is not in full lockdown, and has not had everything shut down.

When was the last time you could get a hair cut?

.
One week ago. I have cut my own hair for about 3 years.

However 2 weeks ago I went to the dentist, and several weeks before that I went to the optometrist.

Vehicle servicing was brought back in a while ago too.

Everything has not been shut down.

If the restrictions are targeted then why is every family not permitted to see other family members not in the household?

Is there a magic way that family members do not transmit the virus?

I would have thought that the numerous family clusters including Casey Family Cluster would have indicated that transmission through families visiting each others has been a particular problem of the second wave in Victoria and that is why this measure was introduced.

And still can't go see them in their home.

Again to prevent mixing. Social contact in the home has a higher risk of transmission as people tend to not maintain distance etc.

Well households do have limits, and so you can go to that limit.

Also throughout the second wave some families have had permitted arrangements to have the same family members provide day care or teaching (You could not just change. One of my sisters has taught her 2 granddaughters throughout the second wave.

Why is everyone restricted to just a few kilometres from their home?

Everyone? Not everyone is. Metro vs Regional Vic for example. Those that had to go to work were not limited by distance as well.

But for those were were restricted to reduce mixing.

Why were all schools shut down?

Again to prevent mixing.

They are releasing postcodes. So what?

So you do not think it helpful to know that a mystery case and more importantly the unknown person that created the mystery case may be near one?

The restrictions apply to all metro postcodes so while they have the info, it isn't been used other than to warn people.

It hasn't? Why do you say that.

So for example when additional test sites were set up in those postcodes that was not using that knowledge? Plus asymptomatic testing has been used based open location at various times.

When local heath bodies focused on those postcodes that was not using that knowledge?

Etc


I could go through all the ways that measures have been targeted, but you clearly do not wish to understand.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

As but one example the postcode of every mystery case within the last 14 days is now published every day, so that people in those postcodes know that may be at increased risk and so may choose to alter their behaviours ( avoiding contact, not going out, getting tested etc:

The 15 mystery cases in the last 14 days (2 Oct 2020 – 15 Oct 2020) are located in the following postcodes, 3015, 3024, 3025 (two cases), 3027, 3037, 3047, 3073 (two cases), 3081, 3128, 3130, 3147, 3173, 3175 and 3184.

Maybe you should do a rain check to see if other Victorians consider that they have experienced such significant and drastic changes to everything they do and want to do in life - everything that nourishes them like visits with family and time with friends - and not use a pendantic definition to delineate one type of lockdown from another.

Postcodes have not need used effectively to lock down trouble areas but simply to warn.

I felt the postcode was quite useful when the 5km rule was being enforced Because exposed places were much more likely near home (excluding worksites).

Now going to 25km, it would serve a purpose of risk, but is less useful because you won’t necessarily know where the site of transmission or the visited locations are just from postcodes. After becoming a case (or mystery case) they should be isolating at home, which is a low risk activity in terms of infecting someone else.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Postcodes have not need used effectively to lock down trouble areas but simply to warn.

When the second wave started to take off various suburbs had higher level restrictions applied just to them. Restrictions by postcode was the method used to define who was subject to the higher level of restrictions. It was not simply to warn.

Victoria locks down 10 postcodes in 'extraordinary' intervention

Victoria locks down 10 postcodes in 'extraordinary' intervention

Victoria will send police into 10 postcodes, impose lockdown restrictions on all businesses; and divert planes from Melbourne to fight a surging coronavirus outbreak the premier has blamed on flagrant breaches of infection controls by hotel quarantine staff.

www.afr.com

A number of apartment towers were put into full lockdown. I dread to think what would have happened if they had not of.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Maybe you should do a rain check to see if other Victorians consider that they have experienced such significant and drastic changes to everything they do and want to do in life - everything that nourishes them like visits with family and time with friends

Living in Melbourne I am well aware of the pain and anguish of this (as in visits with family and time with friends). Why you would think that I am not?

 

[blackcat20]

To be honest, except for losing family and social contact, life isn’t that different to before. The thing I do miss is being able to go out for brunch....

 

[Austman]

The thing I miss is travel.

Not just the travel bit itself but the planing of the travel and the social aspects of it.

I can't even do a stay-cation inside my Melbourne area. I most certainly can't travel outside it. I can't really travel *anywhere*. (exemptions excluded of course)

As I tell my interstate and international family and friends: "It's not torture, but it's not fun either".

 

[dajop]

A couple of observations of someone who escaped the second lockdown after about 2 weeks and who has been in regular contact with quite a few people in Melbourne and regional VIC
1) Introverts, as you would expect, seem to cope better than extroverts
2) Lots of people have a good measure of their lives lived within 5km anyway.
3) Tougher on young adults (20 something’s) who are used to socialising more frequently, than I suspect than those with families

Also, personally I think the negative media focus on the bad bits of the lockdown was not at all helpful to people’s well-being - I noticed some outlets occasionally had more advice on what you can do, but this was less frequent. An example was reminding people they could exercise with one other person who lived up to almost 10km away - by meeting half way.

Also those with very literal personalities probably had it tougher - I mean whilst for a large part of the lockdown you could only be outside your home for 1 hour a day - I think people did realise early on that perhaps police wouldn’t bother trying to establish this, so if you went for an hour walk in the morning and another in the afternoon who would know?

Also there were some entrepreneurs who at least tried to deal with the downside in business by doing some different things like pop up coffee where people were exercising (someone selling coffee from a boat along the Maribyrnong river was an example).

 

[lovetravellingoz]

As I tell my interstate and international family and friends: "It's not torture, but it's not fun either".

Exactly, though it is harder on some than others. Particularly those that live alone and do not have a friend within 5 km, and moreso if they do not have the benefit of working from home which gains some interaction.

But what is the alternative with the Second Wave? I certainly would not want to have the USA or UK experience and outlook.

So with most of us you just do the Aussie thing when faced by adversity which is to knuckle down, make the best of it and do your bit whatever that may be, and despite the Karen's and rulebreaking by some.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Well so far this coming week is looking good, and compared to a normal week a lot more social :

• Easing of restrictions
• Eldest daughter starts her new job after being retrenched 2 months ago (Have not been able to see her since before then)
• Wife gets her hair done on Tuesday, and is she already happy
• Hot date with the wife on Weds when we both donate blood - and we can now catch up with my sister who I have not seen since early June and who is not far from the Blood Bank
• Later in the week I will do a carers visit to my disabled elder brother and elderly parents - both about 60km away, and last such visit was on 7th Sept

 

[RooFlyer]

So, when 5 New Zealanders turn up at Hobart Airport, ( and Tasmania also not part of the ‘bubble’) what happens?

Look here to find out and see how a mature government handles it.