Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

[lovetravellingoz]

No one freaking out that I can see. But 2nd ring won't happen, it's not policy in NSW and no real support for it here (also not happening in Brisbane)..close contacts have been identified and tested venue warnings posted - no further cases to date, doesn't warrant larger lockdowns.

With employment we need to understand whether the guard lied to his primary employer about working in HQ or vice versa. As I posted yesterday anyone working in a NSW office has to declare before entry whether they have symptoms or have been to a venue with positive cases. Either primary employer wasn't doing the daily questions or employee wasn't truthful re working in a venue with positive cases when presenting for work at their office. I'd like to see no casual staff used , so HQ aren't working second jobs, but even with that rule HQ workers are still in the community shopping etc.

Im not sure why you consider NSW to have been slow, exposure sites published same day case was announced.

The guard contracted Covid on shift (did not test positive that day), returned a week later for next shift totally asymptomatic and was found positive.

It would be great if workers had take home saliva tests to test on non hq work days but they don't.

You freaked out after the recent case in Qld. Ditto for the more recent outbreaks in Vic.

Clear errors in NSW, but evidently that is ok as it is NSW....despite some of those aspects being errors you criticised other states for.

My point is people and Governments should not freak out when ANY state has a new case now as the tools are in place to control things.

New cases will occur from time to time for a multitude of reasons and sometimes the reason will remain unknown, but these outbreaks are controllable now.

 

[Gremlin]

Wasn't it a deal that people working in Quarantine Hotels don't have another job?

That's a requirement in a number of states, but not NSW

 

[N860CR]

New cases will occur from time to time for a multitude of reasons and sometimes the reason will remain unknown, but these outbreaks are controllable now.

Hopefully, when 1B is vaccinated, it won’t matter anymore. Not saying “release the hounds”, but once the vulnerable are vaccinated, I truly hope we never hear again about “daily case numbers”

 

[TheRealTMA]

Hopefully, when 1B is vaccinated, it won’t matter anymore. Not saying “release the hounds”, but once the vulnerable are vaccinated, I truly hope we never hear again about “daily case numbers”

Yes. But you mean, I assume, all members of federal and state parliaments, except a couple who express differing opinions.

 

[N860CR]

Yes. But you mean, I assume, all members of federal and state parliaments, except a couple who express differing opinions.

Some have been MIA for a while.... but does anyone really care what the others opine.

 

[jakeseven7]

Hopefully, when 1B is vaccinated, it won’t matter anymore. Not saying “release the hounds”, but once the vulnerable are vaccinated, I truly hope we never hear again about “daily case numbers”

Agree I wish at National Cabinet (lol) they would agree to something useful like moving to a weekly release of case numbers etc or something.

Very soon.

 

[nutwood]

Agree I wish at National Cabinet (lol) they would agree to something useful like moving to a weekly release of case numbers etc or something.

Very soon.

How about disbandment and a return to proper process? Case numbers I can get from the media!

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

How about disbandment and a return to proper process? Case numbers I can get from the media!

Not sure why we want any type of covid numbers from media as some people might equate some media to Craig Kelly!

 

[jakeseven7]

Another local transmission case in NSW reported this AM, however its another HQ guest still in HQ.

So there has clearly been another internal spreading event.

Which is unsurprising given we are using hotels for quarantine purposes.

And so we go round and round and around....

Third COVID case linked to Sydney quarantine hotel, restrictions eased for pubs, bars and clubs

The NSW government eases restrictions in pubs, bars and clubs to allow people to stand up while drinking indoors. The decision follows a third COVID-19 case being linked to the Sofitel Wentworth hotel in Sydney.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Lynda2475]

You freaked out

Not true in fact total bs, I had observations and made criticisms but have never freaked out .

Freaking out implies panic, great worry, and irrational changes to behaviour. I've not panicked once throughout this pandemic, I've been severely impacted at various points by the over reactions from other states locking their borders and frustrated with inconsistency in those decisions but I've never freaked out.

Some state premiers and CHOs have freaked out and slammed borders shut and been slow to reverse closures and lockdowns.

Things have been very predictable in NSW, our Premier has been pragmatic and not subjected us to prolonged lockdowns nor routinely closed borders. We have been back in offices since October.

The big issue with HQ and reason for aerial spread in HQ is that most workers in the HQ program still are only being given surgical masks and not fitted N95s. It's a quick win, get the proper PPE to the at risk workers reduce risk further.

I also did not excuse the worker for doing the wrong thing in working HQ as a second job when his primary job was not WFH. Shouldn't be allowed, but we need to know where the failure is - did the security guard lie (about multiple jobs, or on the daily check in question about being at Covid sites), did his primary employer not do the daily check in questions or did HQ not verify his other employment?

 

[Lynda2475]

The new nsw case isin HQ so no risk to community, and restrictions continue to ease. From ABC news:

"The NSW Government announced that, as of 12:01am this morning, drinking while standing up at indoor venues, pubs and clubs across NSW is now allowed.

Under Public Health Orders, all pubs, clubs, small bars, cellar doors, breweries, distilleries, karaoke bars and casinos in NSW must complete a COVID-19 Safety Plan.

From 12:01am tomorrow, arrivals from Auckland will no longer need to have a test within 72 hours of arrival and self-isolate until they get their result. Routine on-arrival health screening will continue.

All travellers arriving from New Zealand on a flight that is carrying only people who have not been in a country other than New Zealand and Australia in the previous 14 days (a "green flight"), must still provide their contact details.

This is for contact tracing and to ensure they have not been outside of Australia or New Zealand. Provided they are well, they are not required to go into self-isolation or into a quarantine hotel."

 

[Lynda2475]

For perspective

Investigations after virus believed to spread within Sydney hotel

A third case has been linked to the 11th floor of the Sofitel, but - with no shared air conditioning - authorities are unsure how the transmission occurred.

www.smh.com.au

"Over the course of the pandemic, NSW has processed 145,000 returned travellers through its hotel quarantine system. During this time, seven people working in contact with returned travellers have caught the virus.

It has been rare that people working in the hotel quarantine system have spread the virus beyond the hotel.

The first cases were two security guards who worked at the Marriott Hotel, whose infections were reported on August 17 and 22.

Nearly four months later, a cleaner at the Novotel who commuted on long train rides between her CBD workplace and home in Minto, in Sydney’s south-west, also managed to transmit the virus to no one, after thousands of her fellow commuters were directed to get tested.

There have been three cases of patient transport workers, who form part of the wider quarantine program, driving returned travellers between Sydney Airport and their hotel accommodation, as well transferring patients from hotel quarantine to health hotels.

One person who worked at Sydney Ground Transport tested positive on December 16 and also did not transmit the virus to anyone.

The only instance of widespread transmission following a leak from the wider hotel quarantine system was in December when one of two patient transport workers who later tested positive to COVID-19 attended BWS Berala for a “very short exposure window” on December 20, NSW Health concluded in January.

The resulting Berala cluster grew to 28 cases across December and January.

NSW Health said measures taken to minimise the risk of COVID-19 leaking from the hotel quarantine system into the community included daily saliva testing for health staff, cleaners, security, police and Defence personnel on shift.

“Staff are also provided with guidance on how to minimise risk to their loved ones,” it said."


Given how many arrivals NSW has taken, 7 breaches over 12 months resulting in only 1 spreader event (BWS) of 28 cases is not cause fo panic, especially since NSW has never ceased taking international arrivals. And if those 7 HQ staff had n95s we may have had no breaches at all.

To date only breaches from Victorian HQ have had dire consequences, and until Vic resume taking arrivals they cant claim to be doing a better job than the all the states and territories who are repatriating their residents for them.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Huge red flag in that article on the Wentworth is that each room has its own separate ac.

Now while superficially that might sound like a good thing, in practice it most likely will increase the risk if they are just the typical old units you would find in a hotel of the Wentworths age.

AC for covid 19 must have the ability to control the humidity of the air to achieve the desired humidity so that droplets are not dried out thus aeroslising exhaled droplets. Room ac cannot normally do this.

Room ac will also not normally have adequate capacity to introduce a high % of fresh air. The air is thus mainly just recycled and if you have an infected person or persons in the room the viral load will build up. Whenever the door is opened that air then mixes with the air in the corridor.

Now since covid19 has arrived those running large buildings with shared hvac will have turned up the fresh air setting. Normally this is avoided as it raises operating costs. Some retrofit work will have been required on some units.

Secondly they will have adjusted the humidity control to the optimum for covid.

Hotel hvac systems if designed correctly will not share air. It is pushed in through an inlet and drawn out through outlets and does not draw air through rooms, but through the ducting.

By now many buildings may also have made other changes to their hvac such as upgrading the filtration or introducing uv or other measures.

With individual room ac you cannot simply do this. Complete change over would be required and even then the units simply are not made to do it.

From the pics the Wentworth has many balconies and openable windows and doors to the outside. Now while fresh air is good in itself, open windows and doors play havoc with air movement in buildings.

Have you ever been in your hotel room/apartment and smelt cigarette smoke even though a smoker was not near you? That could just as easily be covid 19. I was working in apartment in Qld recently with the balcony doors open when I could suddenly clearly smell cigarette smoke. Going outside no visible smoker and so that cigarette smoke had travelled quite some distance, probably from the floor above or below to be enhaled by myself.

The qld hotel with the spread within the building also had balconies and openeble windows and doors.

Apart from the direct airpath, the openings also allow for pressure differences to form (ie think of sn airplane wing or yachts sail) which can move air around within a building. Think of sitting in your house and feeling a draft while sitting in one room but with doors or windows or even a fireplace in another room being the reason for the draft.

Personally if I had to be in hq and it had to be in a large hotel, I would choose the modern hotel with a modern hvac system and no openable windows.

Better yet would be stand alone self catered cabins with no corridors. That minimises shared air and also staff interactions.

 

[drron]

Indeed the Wentworth does have individual balconies.I linked this proof in another thread a while ago with the Fiji Rugby Union team.

 

[moa999]

Only a minority of the rooms have balconies.

Don't think any in the higher floor (like level 11) have them.

 

[Toula92122]

I did my quarantine at the Sofitel. I believe it's only the lower 3 floors that actually have balconies, the rest are SOL as no balcony or opening window. I was on the 8th floor and I was way above the balcony area. I wouldn't be getting panicky about doors opening and spreading virus as the amount of times the door is opened is minimal and for a minimal period of time.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Only a minority of the rooms have balconies.

Don't think any in the higher floor (like level 11) have them.

Though I assume the NSW statement was accurate about the individual AC?

If you get a viral load build-up air pressure differences between one room and another (ie corridor) can and does cause movement of air. Room AC without sufficient fresh-air will not flush the room as well as a well designed ducted HVAC system. ie Viral load is more likely to build up. And again without humidity control if it is a refrigerated system it is going to dehumidify (dry) the air making it more likely that the virus droplets become aerosolised.

And it is not just wind and the like but also say if you set the guest room to a cooler temperature. The corridor is warmer and so air will move from the cold room to the warmer one.

Now in addition, not all infected individuals are equally likely to transmit the virus. Various CHO's such as Bloomfield have commented how most cases are spread from few individuals. Some people are just more infectious that others. Or as in the recent Melbourne Outbreak where a nebuliser may have caused a much greater than typical amount of aerosolisation to have occurred.

So every now and again different factors can combine to create a transmission event. We have seen this throughout Australia and in NZ HQ as well.

And again as per my earlier point, such events will occur from time to time for a multitude of reasons, including but not limited to human error, and today these outbreaks now get swiftly contained, controlled and eliminated.

Over time the transmission events should get rarer as protocols, and hopefully facilities improve. The regular testing of HQ workers and Aircrew should hopefully also mean that any transmission event will only now have days to grow transmission chains rather weeks. This is in itself is a huge game-changer.

And as the vaccines get rolled out the potential negative consequences of any new outbreak also become less.

Better quarantine facilities will also help. The medical HQ's are operated to a higher standard than the normal HQ and at least in Melbourne ( I presume this is so elsewhere, but I only have knowledge on the Melbourne ones. Qld now do theirs in Hospitals and so this is so as well) also have especially upgraded HVAC. One could ask the question as to why this is not so for all HQ. Though for standard HQ separate cabins would be best.

For medical HQ modified hotels may be best simply so that they are also near hospitals if higher level care is suddenly required.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I did my quarantine at the Sofitel. I believe it's only the lower 3 floors that actually have balconies, the rest are SOL as no balcony or opening window. I was on the 8th floor and I was way above the balcony area. I wouldn't be getting panicky about doors opening and spreading virus as the amount of times the door is opened is minimal and for a minimal period of time.

Hotel room doors are not well sealed. So whenever there is a pressure difference there will be air movement. So in effect the door is always open, but at times it is more open.

Now proper quarantine facilities will have well sealed doors and ante-chambers to prevent the air mixing. Or more simply separate cabins like at Howard Springs where they more simply do not have adjacent corridors or rooms.

We know that transmission has occurred. So how did the virus get from once person to another in HQ?

Now fomite transmission can be possible, but given the current circumstances it would seem more likely to myself that aerosol transmission is the more probable cause in the recent cases in multiple jurisdictions of moving it from one room to another. And moreso in the guest room to guest rooms cases. If the ducting is well designed, this should not a be a possible route.

Remember too that guests do not wear masks within their rooms.

Staff do, but masks are not fullproof and generally are more effective at limiting how much virus an infected person spreads (again the person quarantining is not wearing a mask).

Now staff are wearing masks, but how good are they at wearing the mask (ie airtightness), and do they not touch their faces. This is a hard habit to maintain, and some of staff in HQ such as cleaners and security guards are less practiced at it. Some are only doing occasional shifts and so it is also not a daily habit for them. Also to not touch one's own face is a very hard thing to not do especially for hours on end. Now I do understand that in multiple states they say they have reviewed CCTV and found good habits, But how good is their coverage? Presumably no coverage in change rooms and toilets.

Overall transmission in HQ is now quite rare, but it does happen.

 

[dajop]

To date only breaches from Victorian HQ have had dire consequences, and until Vic resume taking arrivals they cant claim to be doing a better job than the all the states and territories who are repatriating their residents for them.

And even then, it was only the one breach from Victorian HQ, genomically they identified that the leak from Rydges Carlton had caused the vast majority of the second wave in Victoria (and into Crossroads etc). The breach from the Stamford around the same time, IIRC, petered out after 100 or so cases, not dissimilar to outbreaks in other states that petered out quite quickly as well.

 

[Ric]

Personally if I had to be in hq and it had to be in a large hotel, I would choose the modern hotel with a modern hvac system and no openable windows.

But we are not allowed to choose which hotel we prefer to be in