Award Bookings & SC's

[AnonymousCoward]

Not defying your logic but consider the situation below.

Your partner / brother/ sis / whoever works for Qantas and has you on their benefits scheme.

For your birthday / anniversary they shout you and your partner with a round the world trip and pay for it.

You take the trip and if you were a QFF and knowing that your relo has shelled out in 4 figures at least for the fare, would you not want to get some SC's at least, let alone the FF points?

How about 1/2 a SC for these sort of flight's? Just a thought, not a suggestion.

Why does it matter how many figures are involved? If the flight is deeply discounted, then QANTAS is not making any money on the flight, and is forgoing potential revenue from a higher paying customer. That is why the T&C of those flights does not allow FF points and SCs.

If you want SCs for these flights (which someone else has paid for!) then be prepared to pay more for them. SCs are not cost-free to QANTAS.

 

[dajop]

If you want SCs for these flights (which someone else has paid for!) then be prepared to pay more for them. SCs are not cost-free to QANTAS.

Agreed. On many (in fact I'd argue that vast majority of) airlines, discounted commercial, publicly available fares do not even earn status or miles. Qantas is generous compared to most. It is ridiculous to expect staff fares to earn status. It is not what loyalty programs are about.

 

[medhead]

Agreed. On many (in fact I'd argue that vast majority of) airlines, discounted commercial, publicly available fares do not even earn status or miles. Qantas is generous compared to most. It is ridiculous to expect staff fares to earn status. It is not what loyalty programs are about.

Agreed re the staff fares. But isn't this exactly what loyalty programs are all about - Fly with us and wed give you miles, fly with us more often and we will treat you better. Isn't that exactly the point of status.
Look at it this way:
I've paid the same fare as the bloke next to me who isn't earning points. QF have given me some points that cost them nothing, when I redeem the points QF do some accounting magic and turn the points into money that gets added to the bottom line. Why shouldn't I get another notch on my belt for flying with QF? I could have "spent" the points with CX or AA or whoever.

Whether you redeem them for a toaster or a flight, Amex goes and buys that for you from the end supplier. If Amex is buying a flight from QF, why wouldn't you get points and SCs?

And when you redeem a flight from QFF, QFF are buying a flight from QF.

I also find it hard to agreed that an any seat award can be described as deeply discounted...

 

[Binxx]

Why does it matter how many figures are involved? If the flight is deeply discounted, then QANTAS is not making any money on the flight, and is forgoing potential revenue from a higher paying customer. That is why the T&C of those flights does not allow FF points and SCs.

If you want SCs for these flights (which someone else has paid for!) then be prepared to pay more for them. SCs are not cost-free to QANTAS.

I stand corrected but the only way one can get on a staff benefit flight is if there are NO fare paying passengers, in other words they get on ONLY if the seat is empty.

This is apparently why these seats are on standby

Someone else might be able to confirm this.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I've paid the same fare as the bloke next to me who isn't earning points. QF have given me some points that cost them nothing, when I redeem the points QF do some accounting magic and turn the points into money that gets added to the bottom line.

I'm not even sure how to reply to this.

QFF give you points that cost them nothing.
But they get turned into revenue when you redeem them.

Actually, when they give you points it's a liability on the balance sheet. When you redeem them, they assign some nominal revenue to the flight, and that erases the liability.

The actual *cost* of providing the flight, catering, services, lounge etc, well, that also hits the bottom line.

If people flying on FF points was somehow profitable for QANTAS, then why even have a booking engine and a website? Just give away points (that apparently cost QFF nothing), that somehow via accounting get turned into money when redeemed.

I believe that an internet meme goes something like:

1. Give away millions of points that cost nothing
2. Invest a whole bunch of money in setting up and running an airline
3. Give away free flights for the points redeemed
...
5. PROFIT!!

Why shouldn't I get another notch on my belt for flying with QF? I could have "spent" the points with CX or AA or whoever.

Only because of an alliance. There's a quid pro quo between alliance partners (e.g. some AA members redeem on QF) which, overall, balances out. If an airline isn't getting a fair deal out of the alliance, then they leave (aka Mexicana and *A)

You already got your "reward" with the FF points. You don't get more by redeeming your reward. No loyalty scheme works that way AFAIK.

I also find it hard to agreed that an any seat award can be described as deeply discounted...

That's simply your perception of value, and as such is completely subjective.

 

[medhead]

I'm not even sure how to reply to this.

QFF give you points that cost them nothing.
But they get turned into revenue when you redeem them.

Actually, when they give you points it's a liability on the balance sheet. When you redeem them, they assign some nominal revenue to the flight, and that erases the liability.

The actual *cost* of providing the flight, catering, services, lounge etc, well, that also hits the bottom line.

If people flying on FF points was somehow profitable for QANTAS, then why even have a booking engine and a website? Just give away points (that apparently cost QFF nothing), that somehow via accounting get turned into money when redeemed.

You could respond by realising that I'm cynical about payments between entities of a single group. Sure I understand that these are required and legimate, but I still call it accouting magic.

You might get some editification from perusing the Qantas group annual report. Then you will be able to understand better the situation that exists between QFF and QF. This is all part of the whole move to float the QFF program. Basically QFF gets money in, related to the points they issue. Then when the points are redeemed QFF pay cash money (in accounting terms) to QF. So YES QF do get paid to cover the cost of redeemed flights. Even with these payments QFF still makes a profit that contributes to the performance of the Group. You talk about liablities, but seem to ignore the payments tha are made to compensate for those liabilities

Perhaps you are unaware of this so I'll ignore your other words about internet meme's

Only because of an alliance. There's a quid pro quo between alliance partners (e.g. some AA members redeem on QF) which, overall, balances out. If an airline isn't getting a fair deal out of the alliance, then they leave (aka Mexicana and *A)

Yes but if I redeem with QF then the money stays in house. They don't have to provide services to their partners. Sure providing services is part of the whole alliance deal but you have to agree that an airline would prefer to minimise this.

You already got your "reward" with the FF points. You don't get more by redeeming your reward. No loyalty scheme works that way AFAIK.

Typical strawman argument that ignores my previous post. How many times do i have to say it? :!: I am not talking about getting another reward. As you say FF points are the reward. I am not suggesting getting more FF points. Is it clear this time? kapeesh?

That's simply your perception of value, and as such is completely subjective.

No actually, as I have already outlined QF assigns a value to the points, this is not my subjective perception. If i want a flight I can buy a full flexible fare for $1000 or I can use 128000 FF points, or I might decide to buy a red-edeal on the same flight for 24000 points or a cash amount of whatever. Unlike a classic award QF is selling different fare types for different numbers of points. In the case of a full flexible fare QFF would be paying more money to QF to buy the seat on the aircraft. But in any case there is a clear link between points required and more expensive fare classes, i.e. paying for flexiblity. In line with the usual situation intergroup payments I'm happy to assume that QF are charging QFF full price for this flexibility.

 

[NM]

Not defying your logic but consider the situation below.

Your partner / brother/ sis / whoever works for Qantas and has you on their benefits scheme.

For your birthday / anniversary they shout you and your partner with a round the world trip and pay for it.

You take the trip and if you were a QFF and knowing that your relo has shelled out in 4 figures at least for the fare, would you not want to get some SC's at least, let alone the FF points?

How about 1/2 a SC for these sort of flight's? Just a thought, not a suggestion.

Actually, I would not be expecting any FF points or SCs for such a gift. Knowing that the ticket had been provided at a significant discount and that the airline had made little or no profit from the sale of the ticket, I would not be expecting anything more than the ticket.

 

[JohnK]

Getting status would be too easy if award bookings attracted any sort of SCs. They'd probably have to raise the qualification levels a lot more.

I balk to think what this would mean for those who churn zillions of credit card points through to QFF.

Getting partner Gold status for the whole family year after year.

There are reports from people on this site putting $5,000-$6,000 a month through their back up Visa/Mastercard. I would hate to think how much they put through their primary Amex card. Anyway the reward for all their credit card spend is accruing QFF points for multiple AONEx's/DONEx's a year not status. I know which I would rather have....

 

[djfuzz]

I stand corrected but the only way one can get on a staff benefit flight is if there are NO fare paying passengers, in other words they get on ONLY if the seat is empty.

This is apparently why these seats are on standby

Someone else might be able to confirm this.

Confirmed.

If you have the last available seat and a commercial fare paying passenger shows up a minute before the flight closes, even on the highest priority staff fare (other than duty travel), you'll probably be bumped off the flight. Sometimes (though very rarely) even after the flight has closed!

The rationale for not receiving FF/SC benefits on staff travel holds within the logic they apply since the tickets are at cost and generate no operating profit (though the corresponding denial of all ground-based FF benefits is a bit harsh, for example no access to QP despite membership or other entitlements).

However, given that award tickets are 'purchased' after you pay for them in points, by the same logic it does seem a little odd that no corresponding FF/SC accrue since these are effectively commercial fares, not standby seats.

In any case, while it's an interesting question, it does appear to be a little pointless since that's the lay of the land with these loyalty programs, and they're entirely at the airlines' discretion, so there's not really a lot to be done about it.