Ayers Rock / Uluru - not open for Aussies??

[Pushka]

We walked around Uluru - knew I wasn't up for the climb - and nor were the teenagers. MrP would have been fine. They do close the climb down from time to time for weather.

Didn't someone damage the rails recently?

 

[medhead]

The traditional owners would prefer that you didn't climb it. There is still the awe of the monolith. Every Australian should see Uluru.

I don't believe that to be true. Someone, reportedly non local activist type, cut the chain recently. the last I heard the local community wanted the chain restored. This was a perfect opportunity for them to not have the chain restored, effectively banning climbing.

We walked around Uluru - knew I wasn't up for the climb - and nor were the teenagers. MrP would have been fine. They do close the climb down from time to time for weather.

Didn't someone damage the rails recently?

 

[coco50]

I don't believe that to be true. Someone, reportedly non local activist type, cut the chain recently. the last I heard the local community wanted the chain restored. This was a perfect opportunity for them to not have the chain restored, effectively banning climbing.

‘Our traditional law teaches us the proper way to behave. We ask you to respect our law by not climbing Uluru. What visitors call the climb is the traditional route taken by our traditional Mala men on their arrival at Uluru in the creation time. It has great spiritual significance.’

​

So reads the sign at the base of the climb to the top of Uluru. Yet barring rain, wind or extreme temperatures, hundreds climb the rock every single day.
A chain was installed by a private investor before the area became a national park, and while closing the climb has been considered by park authorities and traditional Anangu owners, at this point it remains open.
‘It's because of the history of the place, the way the management structure has been,’ says Tim Rogers, a visitor services officer, Uluru-Kata Tjutu National Park. ‘We work with Anangu and Anangu work with us. Things have been allowed and not necessarily liked.
‘One of the things that makes shutting the climb down hard is the fact that in Anangu culture, people are required to take responsibility for their actions. The individual should know what's right and what's wrong, so gates with signs telling people what not to do just isn't how things are done.’


Climbing the rock: why do tourists still climb Uluru? - Off Track - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[RooFlyer]

‘Our traditional law teaches us the proper way to behave. We ask you to respect our law by not climbing Uluru. What visitors call the climb is the traditional route taken by our traditional Mala men on their arrival at Uluru in the creation time. It has great spiritual significance.’

​

So reads the sign at the base of the climb to the top of Uluru. Yet barring rain, wind or extreme temperatures, hundreds climb the rock every single day.
A chain was installed by a private investor before the area became a national park, and while closing the climb has been considered by park authorities and traditional Anangu owners, at this point it remains open.
<snip>

As I mentioned, it was a condition of the lease to hand back to title to the Anangu people that climbs continue be allowed.

I can respect requests not to climb, but I would choose to climb. The reasons for asking people not to climb seems to have changed. I recall it used to be because the climb crossed a spiritual track, not that it was the track.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

You can't climb the great pyramids at Giza. As an idiotic German teen recently found out.
He's a charming lad who thinks a "local cultural experience" means climbing the tallest thing in the neighbourhood and taking a selfie of his legs dangling into the abyss.
Sadly his legs just aren't that good.

He is now banned from entering Egypt for life.

Would anyone have problems respecting a request from Egyptians not to climb the pyramids?
Even if the request wasn't legally enforceable?
Why is respect for indigenous culture seen as optional?

No, Uluru is not a built structure but even the most superficial understanding of indigenous culture and their relationship with the land would indicate that isn't a relevant distinction.

I wish I could close this post to replies because I know this is about to get as bad as the comments section on an Andrew Bolt article.

 

[medhead]

As for the the pyramids. My great grandfather and all his mates climb the pyramids on their grand tour of Europe and the middle east. Surely I can as well?

‘Our traditional law teaches us the proper way to behave. We ask you to respect our law by not climbing Uluru. What visitors call the climb is the traditional route taken by our traditional Mala men on their arrival at Uluru in the creation time. It has great spiritual significance.’

​

So reads the sign at the base of the climb to the top of Uluru. Yet barring rain, wind or extreme temperatures, hundreds climb the rock every single day.
A chain was installed by a private investor before the area became a national park, and while closing the climb has been considered by park authorities and traditional Anangu owners, at this point it remains open.
‘It's because of the history of the place, the way the management structure has been,’ says Tim Rogers, a visitor services officer, Uluru-Kata Tjutu National Park. ‘We work with Anangu and Anangu work with us. Things have been allowed and not necessarily liked.
‘One of the things that makes shutting the climb down hard is the fact that in Anangu culture, people are required to take responsibility for their actions. The individual should know what's right and what's wrong, so gates with signs telling people what not to do just isn't how things are done.’


Climbing the rock: why do tourists still climb Uluru? - Off Track - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I am only interpreting the news reporting on the latest incident. It was implied that the traditional owners had the option to not reinstate the chain. They didn't take that option, apparently.

 

[jetkins]

I climbed The Rock when we first visited back in the '80s, before the traditional owners' beliefs were generally made known; certainly I was unaware of them at the time. I seriously doubt that I would do it again, but then, I've already done it once so it doesn't hold quite the same mystique as it would to anyone visiting for the first time; I can certainly understand the attraction to someone seeing it for the first time, as I myself succumbed to it!

But to those that are saying, in effect, "screw 'em, I'm gonna climb it", I ask, would you desecrate a church cemetery? If so, then I expect that nothing I or anyone else can say will stop your insensitive cough from climbing, but if not, then ask yourself why would you consider treading all over someone else's sacred ground, especially after they've expressly asked you not to?

 

[Pushka]

People climbing the rock do not consider it to be an act of vandalism but more like a pilgrimage.

I have walked into the Vatican as do millions of tourists. I am not Catholic and not Christian, nor Muslim or Hindu or... Is me walking into the Roman Catholic centre of Religion an act of vandalism because I see no difference.

As far as cemeteries is concerned, my WWI veteran Grandfathers grave is currently earmarked to be dug up and re-used. THIS is an act of sacrilege. But it seems non indigenous graves are somewhat different. He worked on the War Graves in France at the end of the War. How ironic.

 

[jetkins]

People climbing the rock do not consider it to be an act of vandalism but more like a pilgrimage.

Many Aussies make the pilgrimage to Anzac Cove every year, but they don't go stomping around the grave sites once they get there.

 

[Pushka]

Many Aussies make the pilgrimage to Anzac Cove every year, but they don't go stomping around the grave sites once they get there.

Stomping around no. Walking on - yes. And refer to the additional piece I just added above re WWI.

But which I will repost here

As far as cemeteries is concerned, my WWI veteran Grandfathers grave is currently earmarked to be dug up and re-used. THIS is an act of sacrilege. But it seems non indigenous graves are somewhat different. He worked on the War Graves in France at the end of the War. How ironic.

 

[coco50]

As I mentioned, it was a condition of the lease to hand back to title to the Anangu people that climbs continue be allowed.

I can respect requests not to climb, but I would choose to climb. The reasons for asking people not to climb seems to have changed. I recall it used to be because the climb crossed a spiritual track, not that it was the track.

Just putting information out there so that others can make up their own mind, once informed.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

It was implied that the traditional owners had the option to not reinstate the chain. They didn't take that option, apparently.

Pretty sure they reinstated the chain for safety reasons because they knew people would still do the climb.

 

[Mark3000]

The pyramids are completely different, they stopped climbing to prevent damage. Climbing the Rock doesn't cause damage.
I'm with Rooflyer on this one, the fact that they try to tell us not to climb it makes me want to do it all the more.
As someone who works 80 hours per week and pays a lot of taxes, I find it culturally offensive to pay for dole bludgers and would "prefer" people don't climb the steps to Centrelink but as much as I might like to, I'm not going to try to have that banned

 

[coco50]

The pyramids are completely different, they stopped climbing to prevent damage. Climbing the Rock doesn't cause damage.
I'm with Rooflyer on this one, the fact that they try to tell us not to climb it makes me want to do it all the more.
As someone who works 80 hours per week and pays a lot of taxes, I find it culturally offensive to pay for dole bludgers and would "prefer" people don't climb the steps to Centrelink but as much as I might like to, I'm not going to try to have that banned

As an age pensioner, who worked and paid the taxes that were levied on me for 40 years, I feel quite righteous "climbing the steps to Centrelink". I try to maximise my part pension in similar ways that I tried to minimise my tax liability. I find it culturally offensive to suffer the criticism of Centrelink clients as a stereotype rather than an objective, rational criticism.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The pyramids are completely different, they stopped climbing to prevent damage. Climbing the Rock doesn't cause damage.
I'm with Rooflyer on this one, the fact that they try to tell us not to climb it makes me want to do it all the more.
As someone who works 80 hours per week and pays a lot of taxes, I find it culturally offensive to pay for dole bludgers and would "prefer" people don't climb the steps to Centrelink but as much as I might like to, I'm not going to try to have that banned

As I predicted.

 

[marki]

The pyramids are completely different, they stopped climbing to prevent damage. Climbing the Rock doesn't cause damage.
I'm with Rooflyer on this one, the fact that they try to tell us not to climb it makes me want to do it all the more.
As someone who works 80 hours per week and pays a lot of taxes, I find it culturally offensive to pay for dole bludgers and would "prefer" people don't climb the steps to Centrelink but as much as I might like to, I'm not going to try to have that banned

Mark3000 ask any ranger climbing the rock does damage it!! Sorry to burst your bubble

 

[Mark3000]

Yes, I'm sure, it will all be worn away within years by the insensitive climbers. Soon there will be nothing left!!!!
Same with Mt Everest, getting shorter every year due to climbing damage. We should ban all mountain climbing.

 

[Mark3000]

I find it culturally offensive to suffer the criticism of Centrelink clients as a stereotype rather than an objective, rational criticism.

Well coco50, "objectively and rationally", most of those climbing the steps to centrelink have very different characteristics to those climbing the steps to the state library for example There would be many ways you could objectively and rationally measure the differences.

As an age pensioner, who worked and paid the taxes that were levied on me for 40 years, I feel quite righteous "climbing the steps to Centrelink".

We obviously have very different value systems. I'm not sure I would be feeling righteous and proud, it would be more like embarrassment and disappointment in myself.
I do realise I am in the minority though.

 

[kelvedon]

Same with Mt Everest, getting shorter every year due to climbing damage. We should ban all mountain climbing.

Actually Everest is increasing in height by some 4mm each year due to the movement of the Eurasian and Indo Australian Tectonic Plates. The summit, being continuously snow covered would not be subjected to any errosion due to climbers boots.

 

[RooFlyer]

From the top:

You can't climb the great pyramids at Giza. As an idiotic German teen recently found out.
<snip>
Would anyone have problems respecting a request from Egyptians not to climb the pyramids?
Even if the request wasn't legally enforceable?
<snip>.

(my bolding)

So is it the law there, or a request? The law I will comply with; a request I will consider but in the case of the Pyramids, if it was safe, I'd climb (as I have already).

<snip>

But to those that are saying, in effect, "screw 'em, I'm gonna climb it", I ask, would you desecrate a church cemetery? If so, then I expect that nothing I or anyone else can say will stop your insensitive cough from climbing, but if not, then ask yourself why would you consider treading all over someone else's sacred ground, especially after they've expressly asked you not to?

A reminder - climbing Ayers Rock is permitted. It was expressly agreed to by the traditional owners as a condition of the hand-back.

Why is one side of this debate here always name-calling?

Just putting information out there so that others can make up their own mind, once informed.

OK, thanks as long as the information is accurate and complete.

Pretty sure they reinstated the chain for safety reasons because they knew people would still do the climb.

Because climbing Ayers Rock is expressly allowed, probably.

Mark3000 ask any ranger climbing the rock does damage it!! Sorry to burst your bubble

Sure, about as much as a non-climbing visitor+car/plane CO2 exhalation contributes to climate change . I'm a geo. Tell me how people walking on the rock damages it compared to the attrition of the dust of those kicked up by non-climbers walking around the thing. Any National Park ranger will tell you that any human using National Parks damages the park. It doesn't stop me walking in them.

Go on - burst my bubble.