Building a stronger Qantas

[markis10]

i would sincerely hope a pilot is not dealing with 48 unexplained and unexpected incidents on any given flight...

You would be surprised how often a pilot is looking at 48+ incidents when something goes wrong, and each one is treated a separate incident. This is not about Doctors versus Pilots, this is about professionalism, imagine a plane is a patient that presents with these symptoms:

• engines No 1 and 4 operating in a degraded mode
• GREENhttp://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/#_ftn1 hydraulic system – low system pressure and low fluid level
• YELLOWhttp://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/#_ftn2 hydraulic system – engine No 4 pump errors
• failure of the alternating current (AC) electrical No 1 and 2 bus systemshttp://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/#_ftn3
• flight controls operating in alternate lawhttp://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/#_ftn4
• wing slats inoperative
• flight controls – ailerons partial control only
• flight controls – reduced spoiler control
• landing gear control and indicator warnings
• multiple brake system messages
• engine anti-ice and air data sensor messages
• multiple fuel system messages, including a fuel jettison fault
• centre of gravity messages
• autothrust and autoland inoperative
• No 1 engine generator drive disconnected
• left wing pneumatic bleed leaks
• avionics system overheat.

Thats probably 100 ECAM messages at least, not 48, and they all come at once! In the last twelve months alone there have been two significant Airbus incidents involving Australian trained crew, and you can bet their passengers did not worry about the pilots pay packets.

At less than 1% of operating costs of an aircraft I dont even know why we are discussing Pilots wages, its utterly irrelevant as far as costs go, now if your talking safety, then do some research into ATSB incident occurrence and the correlation to airline costs, you get what you pay for.

 

[kpc]

....after all I don't know of any doctor role where a mistake could kill 300 people in seconds.

....but we are good at killing them off one at a time....:shock::evil:

 

[markis10]

....but we are good at killing them off one at a time....:shock::evil:

Last time I have dinner with you then :shock:, hidden agendas .

 

[drron]

....but we are good at killing them off one at a time....:shock::evil:

You obviously didn't watch TT tonight-they say we do in a jumbo load a week.:shock:

 

[straitman]

I can't see how the business is sustainable when it is paying pilots a package of $325k pa. It just seems way to high for the level of education and skill involved. I know doctors who are on less money than that.

This post is a joke, isn't it :?:

You forgot your smilies

 

[markis10]

You obviously didn't watch TT tonight-they say we do in a jumbo load a week.:shock:

Have the inflight catering companies started to employ doctors? And do they pay them $400K +

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You would be surprised how often a pilot is looking at 48+ incidents when something goes wrong, and each one is treated a separate incident. This is not about Doctors versus Pilots, this is about professionalism, imagine a plane is a patient that presents with these symptoms:

• engines No 1 and 4 operating in a degraded mode
• GREEN hydraulic system – low system pressure and low fluid level
• YELLOW hydraulic system – engine No 4 pump errors
• failure of the alternating current (AC) electrical No 1 and 2 bus systems
• flight controls operating in alternate law
• wing slats inoperative
• flight controls – ailerons partial control only
• flight controls – reduced spoiler control
• landing gear control and indicator warnings
• multiple brake system messages
• engine anti-ice and air data sensor messages
• multiple fuel system messages, including a fuel jettison fault
• centre of gravity messages
• autothrust and autoland inoperative
• No 1 engine generator drive disconnected
• left wing pneumatic bleed leaks
• avionics system overheat.

Thats probably 100 ECAM messages at least, not 48, and they all come at once! In the last twelve months alone there have been two significant Airbus incidents involving Australian trained crew, and you can bet their passengers did not worry about the pilots pay packets.

At less than 1% of operating costs of an aircraft I dont even know why we are discussing Pilots wages, its utterly irrelevant as far as costs go, now if your talking safety, then do some research into ATSB incident occurrence and the correlation to airline costs, you get what you pay for.

sorry - the point of my post was that I would hope a pilot would not be dealing with 48 unexplained incidents on a regular basis like a doctor has to.

The ECAM messages you have quoted there happened a couple of times. If that happened on every flight there'd be no time to actually take off and land on a domestic CBR-SYD run.

And emergency doctors do - with car accident etc, have to deal with multiple and concurrent system failures. I simply do not believe that the workload of a pilot is anywhere near that of an emergency doctor on a regular basis. When something goes wrong... yes... but otherwise no.

Personally while I appreciate the skill of a pilot when things go wrong, my immediate concern is to why those things when wrong in the first place. Perhaps, for example, RR didn't test their engines enough?

Anyways... sorry for going off topic a bit

 

[djfuzz]

And emergency doctors do - with car accident etc, have to deal with multiple and concurrent system failures. I simply do not believe that the workload of a pilot is anywhere near that of an emergency doctor on a regular basis. When something goes wrong... yes... but otherwise no.

Personally while I appreciate the skill of a pilot when things go wrong, my immediate concern is to why those things when wrong in the first place. Perhaps, for example, RR didn't test their engines enough?

Anyways... sorry for going off topic a bit

Where are you going with this? Are you saying that it's better to keep a $25k cadet in the chair until something goes wrong then teleport in a $325k 20 year 'consultant' captain (pro-rated I imagine) to take control during the emergency? (Though I imagine if you're doing that, you probably should just teleport out all of the passengers, and the airframe itself!).

Isn't having an experienced, competent, valued and respected pilot on-board the same as any form of preventative medical care? And isn't that part of what you pay for when you fly with a reputable carrier? They certainly aren't shy about advertising it.

I tend to agree with what markis10 said above, and at the end of the day, the provision of competent, experienced pilots is QF's core business. Perhaps if we could compare the line items for similar such imposts to cost, such as marketing and executive salaries, this would make a little more sense?

[EDIT] ... and with that, the days of being a 'vanilla' member are finally gone.

 

[russ]

There are a stack of eager pilots sitting in Jetstar and other carriers who already fly Airbuses. They are paid much less than $325k, but they aren't falling out of the sky. Why should QF pay more for the same service?

 

[medhead]

There are a stack of eager pilots sitting in Jetstar and other carriers who already fly Airbuses. They are paid much less than $325k, but they aren't falling out of the sky. Why should QF pay more for the same service?

How many years experience do they have? 20?

 

[russ]

So what? They are flying from A to B safely.

 

[notzac]

How many years experience do they have? 20?

I know a JQ Pilot who has well over 20 years experience..

 

[medhead]

I know a JQ Pilot who has well over 20 years experience..

Point remains that you can't just take one pilot's package who has 20 years experience and is being paid to fly an A380 half way around the world and then say there are pilots with 3 years experience (or whatever) flying A320s NTL to SYD so why don't they get paid the same.

 

[ethernet]

....but we are good at killing them off one at a time....:shock::evil:

Doctor: ALL my patients will die.

Pilots: Are glorified bus drivers. Now compare that to truck drivers who get paid a flat rate per km.
In both cases electronics and strategy is mapped , and adding value is difficult.
Supertanker captains , I think have been 'internationalized' and don't get paid a lot relative to the cost of the bus they are driving.
USA air pilots have also been beaten around the head, money wise.
So it is a natural that pilots with cozy conditions get attacked (mind you, the board and the exec - are not on the pay cut list), nor is doing something about meal and travel allowances.

Cut pay and offer a % in shares or route profitability, but cutting alone is a dumb option. Maybe pilots can earn their cake, by giving them a say in operations. But bear in mind, the Ansett saga is still a sour point.

 

[markis10]

There are a stack of eager pilots sitting in Jetstar and other carriers who already fly Airbuses. They are paid much less than $325k, but they aren't falling out of the sky. Why should QF pay more for the same service?

And they are the ones that figure in the current ATSB investigations, in each case it has been lady luck that saved the day, not pilot competence! As for a "stack" of pilots Russ, do some research into that while you are looking at the history of low paid pilots and their incidents, you will find in fact there is a shortage that's only going to get worse. Wonder what effect that will have on wages after QF have let all the good "overpaid" ones go?

http://www.pirep.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41829&sid=5f71083f452318f847479bd8b4d09429

 

[el_rooto]

My main points were:
1. $249M is a measly profit (app 3.5-4%, you get better returns in a term deposit). Especially considering it dropped from $240M in the 1st half of the fin year to $9M in the 2nd; and

We're talking about airlines here, they on average make a loss or break even. Has DJ turned a profit yet?

Edit: I can't be bothered to go through all the annual reports, I'll go and check the Bloomberg terminal in the library later today.

 

[Justchecking]

So why are they paying some bloke $20mil to run the joint who has less education and experience than a Dr or pilot and already had a hand in an airline that went bust? If you want to pick on the sustainability of a pilots wage at just $325k, to be fair, you really have to start with the biggest salary first. It's not like he couldn't live very comfortably on $1mil a year and save the Co $19mil a year.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Have Qantas included their profit from the FF system or is this a separate entity. If they include this then their flying operations are loosing heavily,
particularly in the last 6 months. If not where is the money ?

Have some sympathy for the pilots - many of these guys have spent years years flying overloaded 210's into marginal strips to gain
experience when they were GA pilots trying to get experience. Qantas pilots are some of the few lucky ones in the aviation business
who have managed to scramble to the top of the heap. Aviation have never been kind to pilots so good luck to them. At somewhere around $15
per hour per passenger per pilot a couple of J Class class paid fares appears to cover the cost of a pilot. Pilots are not responsible for filling the aircraft
with pax - this is a management issue.

"Every landing you walk away from is a good one !"

 

[straitman]

There are a stack of eager pilots sitting in Jetstar and other carriers who already fly Airbuses. They are paid much less than $325k, but they aren't falling out of the sky. Why should QF pay more for the same service?

So what? They are flying from A to B safely.

Russ,

From my perspective as someone who has been involved in flying operations and pilot training for many years I have to say you are barking up the wrong tree and severely oversimplifying the situation.

 

[dk4]

Regardless of the bullying and cajoling tactics, used by some pilot sycophants in this thread, there are obviously a number of Qantas customers who feel that Qantas management is on the right track… and fully support their tough stance with long haul pilots.

Personally I would rather see the whole International Division shut down (or off-shored) and local pilots’ jobs terminated, before management should give in.

I completely believe that Qantas management would be able to employ suitably competent pilots at much lower pay rates than they do now.