bureaucratic coughry

[Deleted member 29185]

It's not about protecting criminals, it's about protecting the innocent.

I think you'll find that is exactly what they are doing. While there are criminals in this world doing things that are very bad, then there will also need to be some degree of inconvenience to the innocent.

 

[Scott K]

Funny old term, is "rights". Applies to law enforcement, but not criminals.
Well, I never placed you as a "technology fixes all sins" type of person.
What you wrote may apply to a percentage of misdeeds, but not all.

And if a police officer caused distess and delay with reason, then they would likely be thanked, but customs are very different to police.

I'm not one to usually pick on semantics, but by definition aren't criminals criminal because they often violate rights, whereas law officials are there to protect rights?

 

[Scott K]

I think you'll find that is exactly what they are doing. While there are criminals in this world doing things that are very bad, then there will also need to be some degree of inconvenience to the innocent.

Sorry to barge in again. This may well be true to an extent. But it doesn't excuse the lack of due diligence. A red flag due to changes like this may be one thing, but that doesn't necessitate the subsequent conduct and the justification of 'I was just doing my job' for something that had a very reasonable explanation. Back on what we were talking about with the police earlier - they do not have the power to detain people on a basis of something so flimsy. Especially as they would have been aware of the delays being that they work in an airport where it would be hard not to see the impact.

 

[Pushka]

Have just been reading up on security measures into and out of Tel Aviv for a planned trip. I’m thinking I’ll need to take a Valium.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think you'll find that is exactly what they are doing. While there are criminals in this world doing things that are very bad, then there will also need to be some degree of inconvenience to the innocent.

I disagree. For no other reason than being at an airport, a 60 year old woman can be escorted away and interrogated because she changed her plans by a day? Nah. There’s no nexus between what you are talking about and what happened here.

What’s more concerning is a belief that our national security is based on a random baddie going through a random airport, and just happens to be caught by a random search. If the OP’s sister was such a great person of interest, shouldn’t the authorities have arrested her before getting to the airport??

 

[pyffii]

Have just been reading up on security measures into and out of Tel Aviv for a planned trip. I’m thinking I’ll need to take a Valium.

Have been through TA many many times and it’s no where as daunting as you might think....you will be fine especially in business where there is a dedicated security line away from the masses....2 hours before the flight is usually enough and then there is ample time to spend in the King David lounge which isn’t too bad

 

[Pushka]

Have been through TA many many times and it’s no where as daunting as you might think....you will be fine especially in business where there is a dedicated security line away from the masses....2 hours before the flight is usually enough and then there is ample time to spend in the King David lounge which isn’t too bad

We will be entering in Business but flying out as part of a Viking Cruise tour group. I’m thinking as Viking run this pre cruise trip twice a week full of American tourists that they may have a method of exiting as a group as we will be in Y for our flight to Cairo.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

aren't criminals criminal because they often violate rights,

No. Criminals violate laws. Laws often relate to rights, but aren't the same.

Sorry to barge in again. This may well be true to an extent. But it doesn't excuse the lack of due diligence.

You're assuming there is a lack of due diligence.

I disagree. For no other reason than being at an airport, a 60 year old woman can be escorted away and interrogated because she changed her plans by a day? Nah. There’s no nexus between what you are talking about and what happened here.

I guess MT we will agree to disagree. I'm thinking neither of us know the actual intel that resulted in this action, but what I stated holds true.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I guess MT we will agree to disagree. I'm thinking neither of us know the actual intel that reulted in this action, but what I stated holds true.

I'm not sure which statement you are claiming 'holds true'?

I'd like to see the data that supports the efficacy of these searches. (I'm not sure I consider some backpacker who's forgotten a bud of weed to be proof of effective border management when we're producing hundreds of kilos of meth in our own backyard.)

My presumption is always on the side of civil liberty unless there is compelling evidence otherwise. That evidence should be transparent and available to the public.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I'm not sure which statement you are claiming 'holds true'?

The one you quoted. This one:

While there are criminals in this world doing things that are very bad, then there will also need to be some degree of inconvenience to the innocent

and I repeat, I doubt you or I know what "evidence" they were working on, so whether it was compelling or not, cannot be ours to judge!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The one you quoted. This one:


and I repeat, I doubt you or I know what "evidence" they were working on, so whether it was compelling or not, cannot be ours to judge!

Of course it can be ours to judge! And indeed it should be! Government is (rightly) held accountable by the people.

Transparency and accountability provide evidence. A 60 year old woman, told the reason for the search is a one day change in travel plans? That’s neither transparent, accountable, or immediately understandable.

There are criminals on the streets, but we don’t grant police the same level of power to ‘inconvenience’. What is so special about an airport that some people think all rights need to go out the door?

 

[Scott K]

No. Criminals violate laws. Laws often relate to rights, but aren't the same.


You're assuming there is a lack of due diligence.


I guess MT we will agree to disagree. I'm thinking neither of us know the actual intel that resulted in this action, but what I stated holds true.

Laws/rights... either way you are making a statement based on a rhetorical and simplistic logic. The assumption of a lack of due diligence is reasonable considering the outcome. Sure, hindsight is a 20/20 thing, but while a computer can throw up a red-flag, surely in the first 30 seconds of questions they could ascertain the basics line up with what would be an abundance of available information.

 

[jb747]

I think there were some trials about 70 years ago, in which "just doing my job" was not an acceptable excuse....

 

[Happy Trails]

I can't help but compare this to our experience departing SGN last month.
We were taken aside from the queue at passport control to a back room to be met by a uniformed officer.
It turned we had inadvertently packed a cigarette lighter in one our checked bags.
We were in the wrong, but it was resolved in a few minutes with the utmost politeness and ended in smiles all round.
But then, Vietnam operates under a repressive communist regime whereas Australia...

 

[RooFlyer]

Have just been reading up on security measures into and out of Tel Aviv for a planned trip. I’m thinking I’ll need to take a Valium.

Funny you should say that ... on my one only flights in and out of TLV, I commented to some-one afterwards how unobtrusive the security was. Coming in the thing I remember was the poor signage to the rental car area. Going out, nothing at all, except the 'pre-check-in check I mentioned before and then extreme rudeness of the guy on the FX desk air side.

 

[love_the_life]

Have just been reading up on security measures into and out of Tel Aviv for a planned trip. I’m thinking I’ll need to take a Valium.

And you want to go there????

 

[love_the_life]

In my mind it was not so much that the OP's sister was taken aside (that can happen for lots of reasons) but it was the manner in which the whole thing was done. What's wrong common good manners from the so-called professionals in Border Force? It seems that their modus operandi is to humiliate the poor sod (who in most cases is innocent anyway) and in doing so give themselves a bit of a power trip. Personally I really dread going through security as I've come across my fair share of the not so good staff members. And I'm a 60 plus little old lady with nothing to hide.

 

[Pushka]

And you want to go there????

Yeah. It seems that people aren’t singled out but everyone has to do it. The issue with security elsewhere is that people are targeted. And sometimes just for virtue signalling. And sometimes just because they can. If it applies to everyone then that’s perfectly fine with me.

Remember that we are the couple who went to Sri Lanka in 1985 in the midst of their civil war

 

[Pushka]

Funny you should say that ... on my one only flights in and out of TLV, I commented to some-one afterwards how unobtrusive the security was. Coming in the thing I remember was the poor signage to the rental car area. Going out, nothing at all, except the 'pre-check-in check I mentioned before and then extreme rudeness of the guy on the FX desk air side.

I’ve read that as soon as you book a flight then your travel records are deeply scrutinised. Not just what is in your current passport. So they know what to ask when you arrive and leave. I’ve heard leaving is worse than entry. We may also end up on an El Al flight so I’m just preparing.

 

[RooFlyer]

I’ve read that as soon as you book a flight then your travel records are deeply scrutinised. Not just what is in your current passport. So they know what to ask when you arrive and leave.

Oh, I'm sure they know more about an inbound visitor than the visitor has remembered! Possibly because they do this prior scrutiny, my then-recent trip to Iran, with a nice full-page Iran visa, went un-commented on, entry and exit.

I drove through the control points in and out of the West Bank (DFAT: 'reconsider your need to travel' ); slowed but waved through on entry; stopped, showed them my Australian passport on exit, waived on.