bureaucratic coughry

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I’ve read that as soon as you book a flight then your travel records are deeply scrutinised. Not just what is in your current passport. So they know what to ask when you arrive and leave. I’ve heard leaving is worse than entry. We may also end up on an El Al flight so I’m just preparing.

I've been to Israel about 10 times, never had an issue coming in, and outbound had issues twice. Been about 8 years since my last visit, never flown El Al, always BA from London.

The first time, which was also my first visit (circa 2003) was at the oldterminal my bag was x-rayed and manually searched and I was asked to tell them everthing that was inside. They got rather excited when I couldn't tell them about a book about Isreal of all things that I brough in Jerusalem. Once I found out what I was missing, I then got grilled over if it was given to me or purchased. If I was influenced in buying the book by an Arab etc, this went on for a good 15 minutes, and in that time I saw 2 other people get taken to curtained booths for internal examination. In the end I was given the tick of approval to proceed.

The other time I had issues is when my (Arab) taxi driver got stopped at the airport gates. He was gone for the best part of 30 minutes being interogated, meter still running. They also came and checked my passport and were asking questions about the taxi driver, like how did I book him, had he touched my bags etc. Then once inside the airport they did a full manual inspection of my bags, which is not something I had experianced since the new terminal had opened, nor did I received on subsiquent trips. And not sure if they did something to me, but just after boarding the plane I started to feel a little off colour, and once in the air I went to sleep and stayed asleep until worken by crew coming into Heathrow. At which point I had to go to the bathroom where I was violently ill. On exit from the toilet the FA handed me a couple of nice cold refersher towels and a bottle of water. They also asked if I needed assitance in the terminal, but oddly once we arrived I felt as good as I had when the day started. Sadly this was my one and only time flying BA in First Class.
 
I don't know about searches, but ABF maintains a presence at BKK departure gates for Aus bound flights.

They do in most ports which have direct flights to Aus and are especially visable in developing countries like Thailand and Indonesia. They are Airport Liaison Officers, and are mostly concerned with Immigration issues. They help airlines with Immigration issues for travellers to Aus and do secondary gate inspections which is where you would most likley see them.
 
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nutwood, I like your question, but my answer may not really help you.

First up, all law-enforcement officers (whether it be police or customs or the local fisheries guy) operate within specific and strict legislation. Knowing the scope of your powers and duties and responsibilities is the greatest component of the training given.

Within the police, for example, there is no power to just "take someone to the office". Police coercive powers involve two distinct scenarios - in certain circumstances you can either "detain" or "arrest". These are actually two very different beasts. If a person did not wish to voluntarilly go to the station for whatever questioning, etc, and you did not have a power to detain or arrest, then no, you would not take them.

But having said that, there are many circumstances in which a police officer actually does have the power to detain and search someone. And under many acts (for example those related to transport) the officer has the power to require you to tell you certain things, including name, address, etc. If you fail to answer you are actually committing an offence, even if you had done nothing wrong whilst driving.

When you deal in law enforcement you soon realize that the wider public is, understandably, unaware of all the detail. Of course they are. In Queensland, for example, you can get arrested under two broad categories. The first (and less serious) is for what is known as a "simple" offence - this means it is something that will get dealt with by a Magistrate, not a full-blown judge and court. Stuff like being pissed and getting into a fight on the street ("disorderly"). Almost every drunken idiot that I arrested for this would demand his or her "right" to phone a lawyer. This is an idea they get from watching too much American TV. There is no such right. For a more serious "indictable" offence, yes they do have a right to contact someone. Try explaining that to someone who has just had 20 bundy and cokes :)

In relation to the searching of a phone, I do not believe that happened in this case. My understanding is that the person subject of the search was asked to surrender their phone, which would seem a perfectly reasonable thing to do for anyone being investigated. preventing anyone from alerting someone else to security proceedings seems valid to me. Again, I do not know customs procedures.

As far as the "turning them loose" only saying "we are just doing our job". I understand the desire of people to want to know why they were detained/searched/etc, and I suspect that communication skills are lacking in many staff in many agencies, but what really would you expect? That they tell the person that "we selected you because our selection criteria involves x, y, and z" That would just be destroying their intel system. I do really understand the frustration or anger this can impart, but there is no perfect way to manage this.

As a police officer I was very proactive. I cared for the community, and performed my duties with zeal. But I was also very aware of the power I held, and tried to blend both the need to be active, with the reality that most people I would encounter were honest, good, people. I strove to find that perfect blend where I could get the job done, but also not make good people feel violated. Basic humanity and compassion and friendliness goes a long way there - I am sure almost all people I did "random" late night intercepts and searches of actually came away from the experience feeling good, positive. But it is an art. And do not for a second forget the human factor - police, as all law enforcement types, are just individuals. Humans. When you get pulled over for a random breath test in the middle of the night, be aware that the person who so coldly comes up and shines a light in your face possibly feels fear. Every so often you pull over a car where the driver is out of his mind on drugs and tries to kill you. And the bad ones could be white or black, man or woman, teenagers or pensioners. Maybe different from the area of Border Force, but similar principles apply. They are actually "just doing their job". And their primary job is not to make people smile. If they went too far that way the actual needs of the position would suffer.

Just as an aside, but perhaps further enlightening to you to how hard enforcement is, I will share a story from yet another previous life, when I worked in "fraud control" for the Department of Social Security.

DSS, as it was called back then (is it still Centrelink, or has it changed name yet again?), is a very serious part of Australia. There are very few countries that have the finances or desire to provide the incredible safety net that we have here. There are immense sums of money involved, so the government obviously puts a great deal of emphasis on trying to manage that. And the powers we had, were, quite simply, incredible. Far more invasive than what I had as a mere copper.

A huge area of rort is people who claim to be single (sole parents, etc) and get a welfare payment, even though they really had a partner who worked, etc. Even if neither is working, payment rates were higher for singles, which many tried to get. So to combat this DSS had great powers. The principle thing one had to determine was whether the person was or was not in a relationship. The basis of investigating this was a specific questionnaire - set questions. These included (and the person HAD to answer these) was if you are having sex with person XYZ. You just cannot get more personal than this. JohnK would have a fit :)

But I worked in a suburb of a certain city that was predominantly ethnic - ie immigrants. Many to whom english was not yet even a second language. So we tried to get by with interpreters. The vietnamese community was especially difficult - almost no english skills, almost no real documentation (even dates of birth), etc etc. A fellow worker went out to conduct a "review" of living arrangements that had been triggered by a computer-driven data matching algorithm. So the poor bugger had to question an elderly woman and an elderly man to establish their living arrangements. He dutifully went through the form and the involved questions, until it all exploded. Through his interpreter he suddenly realized he was asking a woman and her father if they were having sex.

This is horrendous, but for the life of me, working in the industry, I realised there was no fault on anyone for this event. You can desire perfection, you can do your job in the best way you can, but things do happen. And you get leapt upon.

I am not saying that the Border Force staff are all angels. It is a cough job that will have a mix of great staff who have a genuine love of their work, and others who just need a job. Everywhere in society is the same.

But if you treat the good staff as idiots, you will get back the same. Karma.

Sorry - I have rambled on too long :)
I have to say I've found this really interesting reading. Thanks for taking the time.
 
They do in most ports which have direct flights to Aus and are especially visable in developing countries like Thailand and Indonesia. They are Airport Liaison Officers, and are mostly concerned with Immigration issues. They help airlines with Immigration issues for travellers to Aus and do secondary gate inspections which is where you would most likley see them.
Were these the guys in HK with the checkpoint in the aerobridge confiscating all the booze that people had bought duty-free within the airport before boarding a flight to Oz?
 
Were these the guys in HK with the checkpoint in the aerobridge confiscating all the booze that people had bought duty-free within the airport before boarding a flight to Oz?

No. Those are security staff employed by the aiport.
 
OT and my last comment on this. It has nothing to do with a preconceived bias as you assert. It is my view based on my political beliefs about the Palestinian homeland issue. It’s my right to decide not to go, others can do what they like. End of discussion.:)

It is a good idea then that you do not go to Isreal, your chances of being welcomed into the country as a known supporter of a terrorist regime would make it rather unpleasant for you, Isreal does not need visitors like yourself ....
 
It is a good idea then that you do not go to Isreal, your chances of being welcomed into the country as a known supporter of a terrorist regime would make it rather unpleasant for you, Isreal does not need visitors like yourself ....
adampenrith,
Just a personal thought but calling someone a known supporter of a terrorist regime is a bit over the top.
Maybe you could use the 24 hr edit window and tone your comments down a bit.
Agreeing to disagree is always a positive option.

I have now been back through the thread and am even more amazed. What you are claiming is akin to saying that I am a terrorist because I visited Jordan and/or Egypt recently. Really?
 
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It is a good idea then that you do not go to Isreal, your chances of being welcomed into the country as a known supporter of a terrorist regime would make it rather unpleasant for you, Isreal does not need visitors like yourself ....
Please don’t make comments like this about people who don’t know. And without being a pedant, I’m surprised at the spelling.
 
It is a good idea then that you do not go to Isreal, your chances of being welcomed into the country as a known supporter of a terrorist regime would make it rather unpleasant for you, Isreal does not need visitors like yourself ....
Not sure if I should be flattered or offended by this comment. A known supporter? Really? :)
Actually come to think of it I didn't say what my views of the Palestinian homeland were so not sure how you can make that assumption.

You could at least learn to spell the country's name correctly. :eek:
Just as aside my great grandmother was a Russian Jew.

Dang, did it again!
 
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My sister, an Aust citizen in her 60's, long resident in the US, has been home for a week to attend our elderly father's passing and funeral. Her return trip was able to be brought forward a day, but then turned into chaos because of Thursday's weather disruption in Sydney.

So instead of flying direct to Syd (cancelled), instead she flew HBA to MEL, overnighted MEL and then flew early today to Sydney to connect to her LAX flight. At check-in a long delay because the global passport system was down, so no BPs could be printed. Eventually that's sorted and she heads airside. Here's her email prior to boarding :

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got through to customs and after the eGate was stopped by two customs officers and escorted to an area by myself in front of hundreds of people, asked to surrender my passport and phone and told to wait. No explanation.

Then another two officers escorted me through several back hallways and through 2 locked doors into an inspection room.

They proceeded to interrogate me, and search every single item in my bag - every scrap of paper. Looking for money laundering I guess. It was the limit and I did cry. but they kept going and left all my belongings in a huge pile and said they were just doing their job. Apparently a disrupted trip sends up a red flag.

Awful awful awful.
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Happy Xmas Border Force - yes I know, just doing yr job..
Extremely sorry to hear of your loss. Condolences to you.
Again, sorry for the disruptions you also faced.
To top things off though, what a shameful display by the horrid Border Force thugs we have. It’s dystopian quite frankly.
My wife and I were subjected to verbal abuse and aggression by one them upon arrival back into this country on a recent trip, all because we had been directed by another staff member into this creep’s queue.
I lodged a formal complaint but of course they completely backed up their own bully.
Shameful!
 
Oh So so sorry to hear this. This behavior deserves such a title. It is coughy. Thanks peaceful religion
Behaviour. Of which religion do you speak?

Sorry for the loss.

The people skills of boarder force ranks at the bottom of the species and often little recourse.

Social media posting is fast becoming the only way to feel satisfied.
What on earth is a "boarder force"?

Sorry to barge in again. This may well be true to an extent. But it doesn't excuse the lack of due diligence. A red flag due to changes like this may be one thing, but that doesn't necessitate the subsequent conduct and the justification of 'I was just doing my job' for something that had a very reasonable explanation. Back on what we were talking about with the police earlier - they do not have the power to detain people on a basis of something so flimsy. Especially as they would have been aware of the delays being that they work in an airport where it would be hard not to see the impact.
Due diligence, eh?

Were these the guys in HK with the checkpoint in the aerobridge confiscating all the booze that people had bought duty-free within the airport before boarding a flight to Oz?
Surely a "guy", by definition is a Yank?
 
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So do we call him a Sheila then?
Well … that may be appropriate … although with "guys" not having any gender reference to it these days, it shows how out of touch he is if he's still living in the days when it did.
 
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