Business Class transfer to a different flight

[MikeG]

On my way back from a friend's 50th in Melbourne in late April, I flew Qantas back to CBR, accepting an upgrade for points to Business Class.

We arrived at the airport super early, so I asked if we could change flights. There were insufficient seats in Business, but we were offered Economy seating, which we accepted. The Qantas Customer Service person in the Business lounge seemed to make it sound like he was doing me a favour, but isn't a Business Class fare able to be changed at nil cost? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I was not offered Business Class refreshments on the flight either, is this normal? My boarding pass said Business Class but had economy seating. I didn't want to sound like a dick, so I didn't ask that question of the flight attendant.

We got home, but with only limited snacks and drinks the ride home seemed like a waste of my upgrade, and it seems I was unable to cancel the upgrade when it has been enacted.

I welcome your advice.

Thanks
Mike

 

[kangarooflyer88]

An upgraded fare behaves differently than a fare you purchase using cash or points. Generally with an upgraded fare the conditions of the fare you originally purchased would apply for things like changes and cancellations (but not for things like baggage or lounge access). If you change your flight voluntarily technically you forfeit your upgrade and lose your points if you are departing less than 24 hours on a confirmed upgrade. If more than 24 hours on a flight with a confirmed upgrade you'll forfeit 5000 points. If you had an unconfirmed upgrade it's free to cancel the request. This is why it's important when you upgrade flights to be 100% committed to that flight once the upgrade is confirmed and particularly when you are less than 24 hours out. Now, if QF drops the ball and cancels flights or moves you to another flight then they would either need to get you that upgraded seat on the new flight or return the points.

Lastly, in terms of entitlements it really depends on where you are seated. If you are seated in economy cabin you should only expect economy service. That the boarding pass for that sector said Business Class is bizarre but with QF's IT who knows these days.

-RooFlyer88

 

[ZigZagWanderer]

For onboard refreshments, you get what you are due for the seat, not your ticket. It works both ways, though.

I recall a flight when I went to the USA with my mother at 15 (my first jumbo and long haul flight, many, many moons ago!) and we were put in premium economy for some unknown reason. We were offered champagne, and said we weren't really due it having economy tickets. The FA shrugged and said we should take it and be happy. We were!

 

[MikeG]

An upgraded fare behaves differently than a fare you purchase using cash or points. Generally with an upgraded fare the conditions of the fare you originally purchased would apply for things like changes and cancellations (but not for things like baggage or lounge access). If you change your flight voluntarily technically you forfeit your upgrade and lose your points if you are departing less than 24 hours on a confirmed upgrade. If more than 24 hours on a flight with a confirmed upgrade you'll forfeit 5000 points. If you had an unconfirmed upgrade it's free to cancel the request. This is why it's important when you upgrade flights to be 100% committed to that flight once the upgrade is confirmed and particularly when you are less than 24 hours out. Now, if QF drops the ball and cancels flights or moves you to another flight then they would either need to get you that upgraded seat on the new flight or return the points.

Lastly, in terms of entitlements it really depends on where you are seated. If you are seated in economy cabin you should only expect economy service. That the boarding pass for that sector said Business Class is bizarre but with QF's IT who knows these days.

-RooFlyer88

It was a reward flight, and as per the Qantas website, it is flexible:

Flexible Classic Flight Rewards​

If you used your Qantas Points to book an eligible Classic Flight Reward, you'll be able to change your travel dates or cancel your booking free of charge. A fare difference may apply.

I imagine changes at the gate would seldom attract a fare difference, especially if they are downgrading you. I just found the tone of the QCS dude to be hilarious.

This made the whole experience when comparing with the virgin reward flight going CBR-MEL, the differences were not what you would expect. I found the Virgin flight so much nicer, the cabin was not in disrepair like the Qantas flight, where the headrest nearly ripped off when I extended it and the seat covers in the row in front of me were not fitted properly or were broken. Virgin had better snacks, and the only downside is I had to pay for drinks on Virgin.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Qantas is downright embarrassing.

M

Post automatically merged: May 5, 2022

For onboard refreshments, you get what you are due for the seat, not your ticket. It works both ways, though.

I recall a flight when I went to the USA with my mother at 15 (my first jumbo and long haul flight, many, many moons ago!) and we were put in premium economy for some unknown reason. We were offered champagne, and said we weren't really due it having economy tickets. The FA shrugged and said we should take it and be happy. We were!

The only time I have been upgraded to Business without paying for it was on Qantas, SYD-AKL. I got economy food. This was back in 2000 so maybe things have changed.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The only time I have been upgraded to Business without paying for it was on Qantas, SYD-AKL. I got economy food. This was back in 2000 so maybe things have changed.

If it was an operational update to business class it doesn’t sound like they had catering for everyone, so you got the economy meal. in most cases you will get all the amenities of the cabin you are upgraded to, but sometimes they can’t.

Doesn’t work in reverse though. Not least because if business is full and they downgrade you to economy, all the business meals will be required for the full cabin, leaving nothing to give you in economy.

 

[justinbrett]

First, you're either in economy or business, there's no such thing as business in economy seating. If you get downgraded, you lose the lot. A FA might try and get you some J wines etc but that is not the norm.

If you elected to change flights - I think they might have you on a technicality that you forfeit the points if they don't have seats available. If they downgrade you on a flight you already had confirmed, then you definitely get your points refunded.

Classic rewards are flexible but you need a flight with open award seats (U) to move to.

Pretty odd situation if they were trying to sell you this as "business in economy". Lipstick on a pig! You should have been told when you asked to change flights "no J seats available, do you want to stick with your booking or downgrade?"

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Pretty odd situation if they were trying to sell you this as "business in economy". Lipstick on a pig! You should have been told when you asked to change flights "no J seats available, do you want to stick with your booking or downgrade?"

That for me was where QF failed. They should have warned them what they were giving up by making that voluntary change (i.e. downgrade and lose the points). Had they done that, I have my doubts that they would have changed their flights as they did.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MrJetset]

This thread has a lot of incorrect conjecture and advice.

What aircraft did you fly? I suspect a 717.

Business is Business. If that’s what class was on your BP, that’s what you flew. The distinction on this aircraft between J and Y is minor compared to others.

The agent most likely operationally moved you, which was a favour. Chances are U Class wasn’t available on the earlier flight but they made an exception.

It is possible catering wasn’t assured, however, this is generally written on the BP.

You did get access to the J Lounge, managed to fly earlier for convenience and did indeed fly J. Other than the catering, I find little to complain over.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes, aircraft type and seat number would be a good idea… I didn’t see the bit where the boarding pass indicated business class.

 

[justinbrett]

The distinction on this aircraft between J and Y is minor compared to others.

I can't agree with you there. This isn't a Euro-business thing. 717s are definitely business class seats and beyond a minor distinction - you know you're not in economy.

Unless OP really hasn't flown much before (which I doubt because he has gold status, and I don't want to insult his intelligence) it should be pretty obvious which class you're seated in, and I'm taking what he said as gospel that he was in economy seats.

It might be they left the class as U somehow and assigned a Y seat, and for some reason the bit that prints the class is looking at the fare class and not the seat. When you upgrade, they do change your class to U, so it's possible.

 

[MikeG]

It’s not a complaint, just that I wanted to request advice about how this usually works. It certainly was economy seating it was right at the rear of the aircraft. At first we were seated apart but I managed to get the gate attendant to seat us together before we boarded…

It seemed somewhat disorganised. I was told we would be seated in economy but with business class on the boarding pass I was hopeful. I wasn’t too fussed about where we were seated for a 1hr flight.

 

[MrJetset]

It’s not a complaint, just that I wanted to request advice about how this usually works. It certainly was economy seating it was right at the rear of the aircraft. At first we were seated apart but I managed to get the gate attendant to seat us together before we boarded…

It seemed somewhat disorganised. I was told we would be seated in economy but with business class on the boarding pass I was hopeful. I wasn’t too fussed about where we were seated for a 1hr flight.

What was your actual seat number?

Did the Class on the BP say Business or just the text at the top?

Did you accept a downgrade when changing flights in the lounge?

 

[justinbrett]

I can't agree with you there. This isn't a Euro-business thing. 717s are definitely business class seats and beyond a minor distinction - you know you're not in economy.

Unless OP really hasn't flown much before (which I doubt because he has gold status, and I don't want to insult his intelligence) it should be pretty obvious which class you're seated in, and I'm taking what he said as gospel that he was in economy seats.

It might be they left the class as U somehow and assigned a Y seat, and for some reason the bit that prints the class is looking at the fare class and not the seat. When you upgrade, they do change your class to U, so it's possible.

The best you can hope for is a refund of the upgrade points (or the difference between J and Y if it was a classic reward J seat - I couldn't work out which from your post).

If you were sold this Business in Economy nonsense I would lead with that, especially if your boarding pass said business on it. You've got nothing to loose by asking.

 

[MikeG]

What was your actual seat number?

Did the Class on the BP say Business or just the text at the top?

Did you accept a downgrade when changing flights in the lounge?

It was row 23. It said business on the BP. I did accept the downgrade but was confused when I was given Business boarding passes.

 

[MikeG]

The best you can hope for is a refund of the upgrade points (or the difference between J and Y if it was a classic reward J seat - I couldn't work out which from your post).

If you were sold this Business in Economy nonsense I would lead with that, especially if your boarding pass said business on it. You've got nothing to loose by asking.

I really don't want anything except information. This whole experience was really confusing and I just want to know what was going on. It sounds like I knew about as much as the crew. I don't think I'll waste a business class upgrade classic reward like this again, it was a bit silly really.

 

[justinbrett]

I really don't want anything except information. This whole experience was really confusing and I just want to know what was going on. It sounds like I knew about as much as the crew. I don't think I'll waste a business class upgrade classic reward like this again, it was a bit silly really.

If your BP says business, scan it and send an email to frequent_flyer@qantas.com.au with your details an a brief description of what happened. I think you've got a very good case to get your points back.

 

[GDale]

I think this is the sequence of what happened:
- You purchased a cash ticket in economy
- You upgraded your ticket to business using QFF points
- You get to the airport, check in and head to the J lounge
- At the J lounge you asked to be moved to an earlier flight

At this point, I believe the change could've been done in two ways:
Method 1
The service desk can cancel your check in, cancel your upgrade, and change your ticket to an earlier flight. Once changed to an earlier flight, the service desk can then reapply an upgrade if seats are available in U class (very unlikely).

a) The check in has to be cancelled to offload you from the old flight
b) the upgrade has to be cancelled as the upgrade itself does not carry the fare rules; the fare rules continue to be as per your originally ticketed class (otherwise it would create a loophole - people can upgrade the fare, access privileges such as free cancellation, cancel the ticket and get everything back on what was possibly a non-refundable ticket)
c) The flight change then has to be assessed based on the rules of your original ticket, and you would've been levied change fees and a fare difference

The service desk wouldn't have done this because there's no benefit to you - you lose your upgrade and forfeit your points, and have to pay a change fee this way.

Method 2
As the ticket is under airport control, the service desk can instead just cancel your check in on your original flight and assign you a seat on an earlier flight without touching the ticket (they simply "lift the coupon" from the ticket so it shows as used.)

This means the coupon and the ticket is sort of disassociated with the actual flight you take, which explains the discrepancy on your boarding pass - your flight details and seat would've been based on airport override, but the underlying ticket coupon would've continued to show "U upgrade", which would result in a "Business" label being printed on the boarding pass.

The reason why people regularly report staff at the airport being able to do more things than those in call centres is precisely because of this - under airport control, the staff can override flight details without necessarily doing much with the underlying ticket (other than marking it as used).

The service desk was right to do this as this is the best method to get you on an earlier flight without costing you more - and since fly ahead is by no means a guaranteed right, they've done you a favour, hence the undertone. They should have warned you that (1) the flight will be in economy and you will only get economy service, (2) you're effectively forfeiting your upgrade in doing so - though perhaps they didn't explain it in a lot of detail if they felt like it's something they thought you'd already be aware of by making such a request.


So I think they did everything correctly, just that maybe the comms should've been clearer.

Edit: Sorry, there is a "method 2b" in the sense that under airport control, the service desk can also move you business to business without touching the ticket, cancelling the upgrade and reapplying it, etc. - but (1) that's at their discretion still, and (2) can only happen if there are business seats on the earlier flight. In your case, it sounds like there were no J seats available, so they couldn't have done such a swap.

 

[MikeG]

I think this is the sequence of what happened:
- You purchased a cash ticket in economy
- You upgraded your ticket to business using QFF points
- You get to the airport, check in and head to the J lounge
- At the J lounge you asked to be moved to an earlier flight

At this point, I believe the change could've been done in two ways:
Method 1
The service desk can cancel your check in, cancel your upgrade, and change your ticket to an earlier flight. Once changed to an earlier flight, the service desk can then reapply an upgrade if seats are available in U class (very unlikely).

a) The check in has to be cancelled to offload you from the old flight
b) the upgrade has to be cancelled as the upgrade itself does not carry the fare rules; the fare rules continue to be as per your originally ticketed class (otherwise it would create a loophole - people can upgrade the fare, access privileges such as free cancellation, cancel the ticket and get everything back on what was possibly a non-refundable ticket)
c) The flight change then has to be assessed based on the rules of your original ticket, and you would've been levied change fees and a fare difference

The service desk wouldn't have done this because there's no benefit to you - you lose your upgrade and forfeit your points, and have to pay a change fee this way.

Method 2
As the ticket is under airport control, the service desk can instead just cancel your check in on your original flight and assign you a seat on an earlier flight without touching the ticket (they simply "lift the coupon" from the ticket so it shows as used.)

This means the coupon and the ticket is sort of disassociated with the actual flight you take, which explains the discrepancy on your boarding pass - your flight details and seat would've been based on airport override, but the underlying ticket coupon would've continued to show "U upgrade", which would result in a "Business" label being printed on the boarding pass.

The reason why people regularly report staff at the airport being able to do more things than those in call centres is precisely because of this - under airport control, the staff can override flight details without necessarily doing much with the underlying ticket (other than marking it as used).

The service desk was right to do this as this is the best method to get you on an earlier flight without costing you more - and since fly ahead is by no means a guaranteed right, they've done you a favour, hence the undertone. They should have warned you that (1) the flight will be in economy and you will only get economy service, (2) you're effectively forfeiting your upgrade in doing so - though perhaps they didn't explain it in a lot of detail if they felt like it's something they thought you'd already be aware of by making such a request.


So I think they did everything correctly, just that maybe the comms should've been clearer.

Edit: Sorry, there is a "method 2b" in the sense that under airport control, the service desk can also move you business to business without touching the ticket, cancelling the upgrade and reapplying it, etc. - but (1) that's at their discretion still, and (2) can only happen if there are business seats on the earlier flight. In your case, it sounds like there were no J seats available, so they couldn't have done such a swap.

No, the original tickets were classic reward flights. Hence, fully changeable and cancellable (or they were at that time anyway).

I upgraded them with classic upgrade rewards.

Hence I don't think any favour was done as such. The QCS guy may have assumed the original tickets were cash non-flex economy tickets. But surely the underlying ticket class would be visible in their IT system? Maybe not.

M

Post automatically merged: May 6, 2022

If your BP says business, scan it and send an email to frequent_flyer@qantas.com.au with your details an a brief description of what happened. I think you've got a very good case to get your points back.

Sadly the BPs have already been shreaded.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Hence I don't think any favour was done as such. The QCS guy may have assumed the original tickets were cash non-flex economy tickets. But surely the underlying ticket class would be visible in their IT system? Maybe not.

Regardless, the customer service agent should have warned you that you would forfeit the upgrade and not get your points back. These types of details aren't apparent to the everyday traveller who doesn't have the time to read the fine print for each rewards program they are using.

-RooFlyer88

 

[justinbrett]

No, the original tickets were classic reward flights. Hence, fully changeable and cancellable (or they were at that time anyway).

I upgraded them with classic upgrade rewards.

Hence I don't think any favour was done as such. The QCS guy may have assumed the original tickets were cash non-flex economy tickets. But surely the underlying ticket class would be visible in their IT system? Maybe not.

M

Post automatically merged: May 6, 2022

Sadly the BPs have already been shreaded.

Send the email anyway, say it was on your boarding pass, and say you weren't advised of the ramifications of changing your flight.

Most of the time they would give you the points back anyway, but I think in this case you've got a very good chance of getting them back as goodwill.

I had a J award confirmed on a SYD-PER flight last year, and when the border closed I rang up to cancel the upgrade (expecting to forfeit the points, but the corporate TA said they couldn't cancel the ticket until I did that). Agent refunded my points no questions asked. Technically they didn't have to do that as the flight still operated.