Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L class

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Well that is the case, the Circle asia fare in business uses D fares. The circle asia in economy uses L. This matches what you've reported of having D fares, not being able to get business when there is no D available (but J is apparently) and having the economy leg booked in L. If the waitlist doesn't come through I believe you will earn as per L on that economy leg, i.e. economy, not business and not flexible economy.

I don't really care about earning points (well, I do a little bit) - I care about 1 - being comfortable during this flight (I will have just recovered from a broken foot) and 2 - status credits to maintain status. I'm not an expert in the rules - if this impacts SC's, then I will care more than I do about the lower points earning. Thus, I am trying to figure out how to get myself off the wait list and into one of the J seats (I take it that's what I need). My PA is going to call the travel agent today and push them to call Q to see if they will release one of the J seats out of pity for my broken foot. I don't have much faith but it is worth a shot. I do wonder how many seats they allocate to the Circle Asia fare as the booking was made some time out. The travel agent had offering a business seat on Malaysia Air via KL which I won't do. I'd rather suffer in Q economy.

 

[agentgerko]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

All Oneworld fares (RTW, Circle, etc) require economy booking in L class and D in Business. Nobody seems to have asked if you've tried another carrier. What about BA to SIN, or MH via KUL? Both are permitted on the fare as Oneworld members.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I've had this same situation in the past on ACIR* fares - the early morning flights SYD-CBR always seem to be very short of D inventory, and I often find myself in Economy earning Red eDeal status credits having paid for a First ticket. On one occasion we arrived into Sydney early enough to switch to an earlier SYD-CBR flight, which just happened to have 3 U class seats available.

I asked about moving back to Business on that flight and was told that we could certainly do so, as a points upgrade from our L class seats. It took some argument to get them to recognise the underlying fare class and move us into Business without cost.

The key thing here would be to ensure the fare basis on the eticket for the MEL/SIN sector reflects the D class fare basis - not the L class one as that indicates you've paid for J on that sector so have more chance of sitting in the higher cabin should a seat become available. If the TA tickets you with an L class fare basis MEL/SIN trying to get into J would be like any other Y pax trying to self upgrade.

Well that is the case, the Circle asia fare in business uses D fares. The circle asia in economy uses L. This matches what you've reported of having D fares, not being able to get business when there is no D available (but J is apparently) and having the economy leg booked in L. If the waitlist doesn't come through I believe you will earn as per L on that economy leg, i.e. economy, not business and not flexible economy.

Don't suppose you'd get original routing credit seeing as though technically you've paid for J MEL/SIN?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

All Oneworld fares (RTW, Circle, etc) require economy booking in L class and D in Business. Nobody seems to have asked if you've tried another carrier. What about BA to SIN, or MH via KUL? Both are permitted on the fare as Oneworld members.

These have been discussed. The OP has a specific day and time they want to fly. All other cities, times and flights are not acceptable.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Thus, I am trying to figure out how to get myself off the wait list and into one of the J seats (I take it that's what I need). My PA is going to call the travel agent today and push them to call Q to see if they will release one of the J seats out of pity for my broken foot. I don't have much faith but it is worth a shot. I do wonder how many seats they allocate to the Circle Asia fare as the booking was made some time out. The travel agent had offering a business seat on Malaysia Air via KL which I won't do. I'd rather suffer in Q economy.

QF doesn't allocate seats for your Circle Pacific Fare. They allocate seats at different prices depending on how much they think they can sell each seat for (or in some cases, seats they don't think they can sell).

'D class' is generally less than the full published fare and covers a covers a whole range of purchase options... people on round the world fares, circle pacific, circle asia, even just regular return fares which are being sold for less than the full published fare.

Then QF has 'super saver sales' from time to time which book into an even lower class - 'I' class. And finally there are the seats Qantas thinks it can sell at the very highest price ('J' - full unrestricted) and that they can't sell at all - 'U' class award seats and upgrade seats.

On any given flight there will be a mix of how many seats are available at each level.

What your agent needs to do is ride QF and ask them to convert an existing seat (any seat) into a 'D' class so that you can book it with your ticket. Is this a major issue? I suppose most people would alter their plans to avoid flying in economy.

 

[agentgerko]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

The key thing here would be to ensure the fare basis on the eticket for the MEL/SIN sector reflects the D class fare basis - not the L class one as that indicates you've paid for J on that sector so have more chance of sitting in the higher cabin should a seat become available. If the TA tickets you with an L class fare basis MEL/SIN trying to get into J would be like any other Y pax trying to self upgrade. edit seeing as though technically you've paid for J MEL/SIN?

One point you may not be aware of. Even if you've paid Business Class and accepted a downgrade on a sector where a Business seat was not available, if one does come through off waitlist you will be asked by QF or your agent to pay whatever change fee that fare has, because your ticket will need to be reissued to show the new seat. You don't just get automatically put back into Business. I have had people travelling on QF tickets costing $12K+ who have been very startled (and annoyed) to have to pay a fee just to get back into a seat they'd already paid for in the first place.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

One point you may not be aware of. Even if you've paid Business Class and accepted a downgrade on a sector where a Business seat was not available, if one does come through off waitlist you will be asked by QF or your agent to pay whatever change fee that fare has, because your ticket will need to be reissued to show the new seat. You don't just get automatically put back into Business. I have had people traveling on QF tickets costing $12K+ who have been very startled (and annoyed) to have to pay a fee just to get back into a seat they'd already paid for in the first place.

Interesting...
That is both startling (and annoying). Curious - based on your experience, where does my waitlist sit in terms of ranking versus others who are trying to upgrade using points - say a platinum status with an upgradeable economy versus my paid for business (I'm gold status) (people keep correcting my usage of terms - I'm not sure if that is correct in formal lingo, but that is what I have in my mind). Note - when I click on my booking in my Q profile I show a held seat in economy and wait list in business...wouldn't I just be moved off the wait list if the seat comes through - when will they ask for the change fee?

My PA is calling the travel agent today (if she can actually reach a human - they avoid all contact other than email) to see if she can push them.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Interesting...
That is both startling (and annoying). Curious - based on your experience, where does my waitlist sit in terms of ranking versus others who are trying to upgrade using points - say a platinum status with an upgradeable economy versus my paid for business (I'm gold status) (people keep correcting my usage of terms - I'm not sure if that is correct in formal lingo, but that is what I have in my mind). Note - when I click on my booking in my Q profile I show a held seat in economy and wait list in business...wouldn't I just be moved off the wait list if the seat comes through - when will they ask for the change fee?

My PA is calling the travel agent today (if she can actually reach a human - they avoid all contact other than email) to see if she can push them.

You are wait-listed for a 'D' class seat.

Upgrades and awards don't book into D class. So there is no competition in that sense. However - it entirely depends how QF manages any remaining seats in the days prior to departure. If they have 5 unsold seats, they may decide to make them all upgrade inventory, or they may decide to make some of them D class, I class, or even keep them as full J for last minute sales. If they think they can sell some of them at D class you'd think that's the choice they would make. Although - you've already paid, they have your money, and possibly no incentive to make the seat available to you.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

You are wait-listed for a 'D' class seat.

Upgrades and awards don't book into D class. So there is no competition in that sense. However - it entirely depends how QF manages any remaining seats in the days prior to departure. If they have 5 unsold seats, they may decide to make them all upgrade inventory, or they may decide to make some of them D class, I class, or even keep them as full J for last minute sales. If they think they can sell some of them at D class you'd think that's the choice they would make. Although - you've already paid, they have your money, and possibly no incentive to make the seat available to you.

Now I get it - very clear - I have to stop thinking about the class and it is all about the fare bucket and what happens is completely invisible to the consumer.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Now I get it - very clear - I have to stop thinking about the class and it is all about the fare bucket and what happens is completely invisible to the consumer.

Exactly!

In the same way airlines have years of data to tell them how many seats they can overbook a flight by, they will have the same data that says they can sell 'x' seats at full J, 'x' seats at D class, and then 'x' left over that they need to heavily discount to 'I' class or can 'give away' for awards.

That 'D' class is not available on your flight indicates QF doesn't think they need to offer a seat at that price (at this moment in time) in order to maximise the revenue they can from that cabin. But flights are contantly reviewed by yield management, so the TA calling might prompt them to review loadings and make a seat available for you in the sub-class you need.

 

[agentgerko]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

These have been discussed. The OP has a specific day and time they want to fly. All other cities, times and flights are not acceptable.

Not quite true. He has said he needs to travel on a specific date. That's all. No mention of a specific time, else he wouldn't be looking at options through SYD/BNE etc.He's said he won't fly MH (poor ol MH, nobody loves them anymore), even though they are an allowable option. But there's MEL/SYD/SIN using BA ex SYD. There's MEL/HKG/SIN on CX. These would all get him out of MEL and into SIN same day. Guess a lot depends on which he puts more weight on - quick journey in Y or longer journey in J.

And the Circle Asia fare has no option to upgrade one sector from D to J or C class. The whole fare would have to be requoted using route fares and the cost would be 2-3 times the Circle Asia cost. That fare is a bit of a bargain.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Not quite true. He has said he needs to travel on a specific date. That's all. No mention of a specific time, else he wouldn't be looking at options through SYD/BNE etc.He's said he won't fly MH (poor ol MH, nobody loves them anymore), even though they are an allowable option. But there's MEL/SYD/SIN using BA ex SYD. There's MEL/HKG/SIN on CX. These would all get him out of MEL and into SIN same day. Guess a lot depends on which he puts more weight on - quick journey in Y or longer journey in J.

And the Circle Asia fare has no option to upgrade one sector from D to J or C class. The whole fare would have to be requoted using route fares and the cost would be 2-3 times the Circle Asia cost. That fare is a bit of a bargain.

FYI - she - jb expat - I am a female business traveler. The quote ex-Circle Asia was indeed almost $5k more. Time did matter when I actually looked into the options of going via a stop somewhere. My husband is going to home alone with 2 little kids for two weeks - I wanted to leave as late as possible on Sunday (without doing an overnight/very late flight). I took the option that worked best given all the factors I needed to consider. Now I am first world complaining about my seat - I know that. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way to get myself into a business class seat for the first leg as flying time is a nice break for me these days.

And MH business was definitely available - but I rejected it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

F I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way to get myself into a business class seat for the first leg as flying time is a nice break for me these days.

And MH business was definitely available - but I opted rejected it.

I agree it's worth going for the business class seat! No need to sit in economy if you don't have to!

(And agree with no MH.)

 

[agentgerko]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Sincere apologies for the presumption that you were a male traveller. I hope it works out for you eventually.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Sincere apologies for the presumption that you were a male traveller. I hope it works out for you eventually.

No worries - it is part of the overall explanation which I never included (husband is dreading the 2 weeks as solo parent).

 

[dajop]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

There's MEL/HKG/SIN on CX.

Although that will increase the fare a bit, pushing it from the 13,000 mile to 17,000 mile category, not too mention a lot of extra time. The other option (albeit with poorer seat, but better than Y would be via PER if the PER-SIN service is operating that day. But that adds 5 hours of travelling.

The fact is beggars can't be choosers and once you start eliminating viable options because of (presumably) safety concerns, you're stuck with those services, such as QF's, with higher demand, and less availability. I am not sure if QF is operating their new cabin on the day of travel, but anecdotally availability of lower fare classes (and awards) has been less since the cabin upgrade, understandably so.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

by the way - will be interesting to see - as of today 13 business class seats are taken and 15 are empty (based on the seating chart - given that I am waitlisted, I can see it). 32 days until flight.

 

[drron]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Doesn't matter how many empty seats there are QF doesn't see things from the passengers perspective.A few years ago we had a OW RTW award booked with our QF miles and flying business class.On the JFK-LAX leg we couldn't get J so we had to accept economy.Told we were on a wait list.Asked at checkin at JFK-no way.Got on board the 744 and there were a total of 7 J pax.We were in the first row of Y and when the curtain was open we had to look at an empty J cabin.

 

[mannej]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

by the way - will be interesting to see - as of today 13 business class seats are taken and 15 are empty (based on the seating chart - given that I am waitlisted, I can see it). 32 days until flight.

Seating charts don't indicate anything here, as out of the 15 empty seats here, you don't know how many are pax that have not allocated a seat, or that the seat is totally empty.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I have an update to share - happy with the outcome but a bit baffled about what went on to get there... So, I flew to Singapore this past Sunday; up until I went to sleep on Saturday, I could see that I was still on the wait list for business but that it had not come through (it also appeared that there was only 1 non-allocated seat in business but I have learned via prior posts that that is neither here nor there at the end of the day. I woke on Sunday and checked online to see whether I had been moved off the wait list. Not only was I still in economy but I was no longer on any wait list. I called Q, and was told that "Melbourne airport operations (Qantas)" took me off the wait list and left me in economy. I did not understand this and the customer service rep had no further explanation. I asked her to put me back on the wait list even though she could see the business cabin was full as you never know who won't show up. She was very pleasant and did so. When I arrived at MEL, I checked in and was assigned my economy seat but was told I was number 2 on the wait list. Five minutes before boarding, I was called to the service desk in the lounge and given my business class seat (woo hoo). I was very happy but also wondered, what would have happened if I just assumed when I woke on Sunday that I was still on the wait list...why would Q take me off at any time prior to flight time. Anyway, from my view, the moral of the story is that it pays to be a complete pain in the bottom and to constantly follow up.