Calling All Uber Drivers...

[Skyring]

Don't forget public holiday and in some cases a weekend surcharge. So not quite the right analogy to use...

Taxis charge more at night and weekends. The surge is a good idea, but poorly implemented by Uber.

 

[Skyring]

If you had to do it as a full time job I'd say you'd be looking at maybe $60k per year before expenses. So for someone with no skills pretty good but anyone with any skills should be able to find better paying work pretty much anywhere they look.

Spot on.

Looking at my figures, I'm grossing about $30 an hour and netting about half that. A full time job (say 50 weeks at 40 hours a week), would be $60K gross and a bit over $30K once I pay for the car and fuel and GST and stuff.

Not something to raise a family and pay a mortgage on, but fine for a retired person or a student.

 

[jastel]

Given we are on a frequent flyer forum, what about airlines, do they charge more at peak times of days, peak times of the year? Absolutely!

And some restaurants do charge less for "theatre" sittings with cheaper menus, between certain hours before the peak crowd hits.

True...but most people dont book airlines and hotels with 5 minutes notice, there is ample time to book at cheaper prices.
Hotels and Airlines dont raise prices for an hour or so just because its raining.

 

[jastel]

Taxis charge more at night and weekends. The surge is a good idea, but poorly implemented by Uber.

True but only flagfalls rise by a dollar or two and a few extra cents per km, not multiplying the whole fare by X times.
It does help to get drivers to do the night shift...it is not nice work sometimes as you know.

 

[jastel]

Spot on.

Looking at my figures, I'm grossing about $30 an hour and netting about half that. A full time job (say 50 weeks at 40 hours a week), would be $60K gross and a bit over $30K once I pay for the car and fuel and GST and stuff.

Not something to raise a family and pay a mortgage on, but fine for a retired person or a student.

Agree.
Taxis are similar...the more you drive the more you earn. Treating it as a part time hobby is not the way to make a decent living.

 

[jastel]

Jastel clearly a disgruntled cab driver.

Not any more...but I can see past the Uber BS and know the problems that are coming.

 

[Skyring]

Agree. Taxis are similar...the more you drive the more you earn. Treating it as a part time hobby is not the way to make a decent living.

Driving taxis full-time is not what I'd call a decent living. Those twelve or fifteen hour shifts leave very little room for a normal life. The pay is appalling, there are no holidays, no sick leave, diet and exercise is usually awful.

I don't mind one little bit if part-timers in their own cars earn a little extra. The social aspect is an attraction, from both sides. As a driver, I enjoy chatting, if the passenger is willing. As a passenger, I enjoy finding out how the driver views the job.

The voice of experience here - cabbies get jaded and stale. A driver near the end of his shift is often wanting nothing more than to get the passenger out as soon as possible, gas up and go home.

 

[jastel]

If an Uber driver isn't paying the higher insurance, he won't be able to upload the correct docs and Uber won't let him on the platform until that's fixed.
Maybe they are tougher now than before...but they are still sponging off the car class

Uber is benefiting from the same tax loopholes that every other multinational is. This is a global problem, not Uber or Australia alone.
Agree 100% but still needs to be stopped.

Avoiding GST only works so far. Uber pays money into Australian bank accounts, and the ATO can spot those deposits. Not all Uber payments are subject to GST - and yes, Uber doesn't pay it - but the ATO will have a rough idea how much the driver should be paying and that's going to catch up with them.
Lets hope so...and catch the Taxi drivers who dont pay as well...I hate paying more tax than I need to.

Greedy and unsafe taxi drivers have an incentive to drive - they'll earn more money by taking shortcuts (and the"long way"), and there's rarely any comeback. Uber drivers who bend the rules get rated down and kicked off.
Greedy and Unsafe drivers will apply equally, as will ripping people off. But you can call a Taxi Company. You cant call Uber.

Drivers who are smart and well-spoken, look after their passengers etc. can generally get better-paying jobs. I happen to like Uberdrivering, but money isn't my main focus.
Agree. Good Taxi drivers get better jobs as well. Money IS the main focus for most people in whatever job I would think.

Uber's rating system works well. Drop below 4.6 stars out of five, you get kicked off the platform. Passengers get an email showing times and places of start and end, and the route followed. Drivers who don't take an efficient route are easily identified.
Not convinced based on what I have read.

GPS knows where the driver is - it is getting the information off the driver's phone - and will assign the closest car to a job. Yes, sometimes this is the wrong way down a one way street, or the driver is in the wrong lane to make a turn, but generally it works well. I've often been a few metres from somebody making a request and can have them on the road in seconds.
In Taxiland we call that a HAIL!

I've studied the way the cars are presented on the map. It's usually pretty accurate and any lag is on the order of a few seconds, rather than minutes. I can drive down the road watching my progress on the passenger app and it will lag maybe a half-block.
If Uber wants it to be correct it can be close...when Uber just makes maps/cars up to foil enforcement efforts or suck in customers, this is wrong.

Yes, an Uber driver can turn the phone off, but the instant he does that, the tracking stops and he's not going to be getting paid. It *might* happen, but I can't see any advantage in doing it. Even if he did manage to pull some sort of shonky, the passenger will likely spot it because the end of ride map won't correspond to the reality - especially if the fare is somehow out of the ordinary.
I was not referring to the fare side of things...more the safety side of things...

I won't comment on taxi security cameras except to say they usually aren't much help to driver or passenger. Police aren't going to get involved for minor stuff that involves effort on their part.
Agree...police only get involved when forced to, and they are no help for a $10 runner, but when a serious incident occurs they are useful.

If an Uber driver has an internal camera - some do - then don't go blaming him for being amused by your drunken antics. Any Uber driver posting frivolous footage on social media is going to be in hot water. I have, however, seen drivers post footage of assaults and racial abuse.
Taxi drivers cant post footage of the abuse they cop...I agree no person working wherever should get abused...the problem in cars is there is nowhere to hide.

I don't agree with the Uber surge model. I think that if there's a hundred passengers wanting one of the ten available Ubers, then a surcharge to get priority treatment is reasonable. I don't think paying a surcharge for all the ride, especially for those parts where there is no surge demand, is fair on the passenger. Some rides can end up costing many times a cab fare.
Very honest of you. Why not just do the longest waiting job first like taxis are forced to?
Also the public must understand that they cant always get transport in 5 minutes on days like NYE...we all have to wait sometimes.

Some Uber drivers go hunting surge fares. These are generally the same drivers who won't drive to a railway station to pick up a passenger who is likely only going a few blocks. I think that this is a poor strategy, and they remain idle waiting for lucrative fares which may not come. The way to make money is to have a passenger in the car and the wheels turning.
Again you are correct and I appreciate your honesty...many taxi drivers dodge "less desirable" jobs as well...but that doesnt help the "less desirable" get transport.

Some Uber drivers get sucked in by the inflated promises. The return is never going to be high, and a net of $20 an hour is about as good as it's ever going to get. For a good driver. But I'm making money, enjoying a good part-time job, and my passengers are reporting satisfaction with the system. If they were losing out, they wouldn't be so enthusiastic. Most tell me that they will NEVER take another cab.
Glad you are happy...but I will wait and see about passengers satisfaction when (or if) uber dominate like they want and stop subsidising fares and they go up to a realistic level. Most people given the choice of paying $6 or $10 would pay $6, its like Qantas and Tiger I guess, they both get from A to B, the problem is when things go wrong. And when the disabled and unprofitable sections of society have NO transport options left...well they can just eat cake.

It's not the mess implied. Uber is certainly raking in the money, but drivers are doing okay, and passengers love Uber. The taxi industry had a monopoly for decades, and they didn't lift their game. It's not going to go back the way it was, and the lazy, the greedy, the slovenly, and the dishonest are getting the short end of the stick.
The taxi industry is a multitude of small operators like yourself who for ease of dispatch use 1 phone number...or app now.
Taxis operated under rules which basically prevented change and innovation as it didnt comply with the old (and outdated) acts.
The government was in charge of licenses and limited supply so everyone made a fair profit...government included. Many Uber drivers want a cap on new ubers as well, saying newbies are stealing their work and they cant afford it...same as taxi drivers said when uber arrived.
The only thing Uber did better was ignore laws and keep paying fines until the govt caved.

In a few years, the drivers will be removed from the equation altogether. Self-driving cars will leave very little room for the traditional taxi and cut costs severely. It would be possible for a self-driving Uber to charge a dollar a ride, regardless of length, and still make money driving 24/7. The current taxi drivers will be the ones cleaning and restocking cars at three in the morning when there's some downtime.
Dont think so...maybe in 20 years or so the laws might catch up...laws will be slower than technology as usual.
I agree that if self driving cars get good enough (and are accepted, which I think will be the harder thing) that taxi drivers and uber drivers will be not needed...except to lift bags and clean vomit.

Think about it. If a self-driving electric car costs about the same as a new Commodore, then you can buy one, hook it into some crowd-sourced system, and have it earning money when you don't need it. Which could be all day, every day. Anything over 1.5 rides per hour at a dollar a pop, and you're making a profit.

The question is will private individuals be allowed to own a car? Or will Google, Toyota etc own them all.
Again I think this is pretty far off, both from the tech and law sides of things.
If you own it, you are responsible for the safety of the passenger, what if something goes wrong...and it will, who pays?
You werent driving, the passenger wasnt driving, maybe it was a software glitch...sue Google, maybe it was a mechanical fault sue Toyota...maybe the customer vomited into the electrics???

We have the technology to live on the moon and have done for decades but we still dont...

You are taking advantage of the current laws (or lack of), the same as my family and many others did under the previous system.
Neither system is perfect but we must not lose sight of the main point...to transport the public.
Dont take any of this as a personal attack, I dont...I am trying to present other sides of the coin from my experiences in the taxi business.

 

[jastel]

Sorry Skyring...tried to answer each point but it didnt show up that way.
The bit in the box is yours and my answers as well.

 

[dajop]

True...but most people dont book airlines and hotels with 5 minutes notice, there is ample time to book at cheaper prices.
Hotels and Airlines dont raise prices for an hour or so just because its raining.

I probably take a different view of surge pricing, as I don't often catch uber in Australia (three times only IIRC). However I do catch it regularly in Singapore, and the surge pricing is probably more accepted here, because taxi's charge 25% surcharge during morning and evening peak, plus extra CBD flagfall during evenings, and 50% surcharge overnight. Again, different dynamic, but when it is raining here taxi's are almost impossible to get, and so if you need to go to the airport, for example you could take at least half an hour longer or more if unlucky, with uber surge pricing it will cost you but at least you can usually get somewhere with minimal wait time.

Worst I've seen on uber here when I've wanted to travel was 3x (for about 3 minutes then back to 1.6) but typical is about 1.8x (although now it's switched to fixed price fares based on pick up point and destination, unless you travel the route regularly you don't know what the surge pricing factor is).

Not for the feeble, but if someone doesn't like surge pricing they can always stick with taxi's or wait it out. Although it is really the stuff of classical market economics - laws of supply and demand applying in real time.

 

[Skyring]

The question is will private individuals be allowed to own a car? Or will Google, Toyota etc own them all.
Again I think this is pretty far off, both from the tech and law sides of things.
If you own it, you are responsible for the safety of the passenger, what if something goes wrong...and it will, who pays?
You werent driving, the passenger wasnt driving, maybe it was a software glitch...sue Google, maybe it was a mechanical fault sue Toyota...maybe the customer vomited into the electrics???

We have the technology to live on the moon and have done for decades but we still dont...

You are taking advantage of the current laws (or lack of), the same as my family and many others did under the previous system.
Neither system is perfect but we must not lose sight of the main point...to transport the public.
Dont take any of this as a personal attack, I dont...I am trying to present other sides of the coin from my experiences in the taxi business.

I was a night cabbie for five years. Uber is a better experience for both driver and passenger. I know the first because I've tried both, having been Uberdrivering for over a year now. It's a pleasure, not a stress.

The second because the passengers tell me.

Self-driving cars are being tested on public roads right now. In the USA, you can get a self-driving Uber right from the app. The enormous economic, environmental, and efficiency advantages will sell all parties. Except for taxidrivers, I suppose. The average joe might not be able to understand how the system works, but the average joe doesn't understand how mobile phones work either. People will vote with their feet and their wallets.

Uber has immediate access to data. Global, national, state, city, driver. They know exactly what's going on, because they are getting a constant flow of data from the passenger's phone and the driver's phone. Every ride is rated by the passenger, the pax are rated by the driver. The Uber staff are plugged in. One chap I saw had velcro patches on his trousers so he could work on his laptop standing up. You can't ring Uber up, but you can communicate from the app, and they are responsive to any irregularities.

The taxi industry has nothing like this. They are slow, have outdated, inconsistent systems; they can't respond effectively. In states where Uber is legal, the same rules apply to all - cars are roadworthy, drivers are legal.

Now, I don't know about you, but I've had plenty of taxi rides where the driver has been driving an unsafe car, has been tired and unsafe, has had a dirty car, has been slovenly or smelly, has ripped me off, has been incompetent or rude, or has broken road and industry rules. The effort of identifying the car and driver, and contacting someone who could do something about it keeps most passengers from lodging a complaint. With Uber, it's right there on your app at the end of the ride. You are prompted to do it.

Inadequate drivers don't last in Uber because they are rated down and get kicked off.

 

[NoName]

I don't understand the negativity towards the surge pricing from a taxi vs uber perspective. A business is entitled to use whatever pricing structure they want. If the customer doesn't like it they will vote with their feet. It doesn't look like they're doing that.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're "already" paying Rego, maintenance, etc, the real cost to you can only truly be the "Uber Component" i.e. the increased miles on your clock, the fuel to do the drive (tax deductible) and your time. to add "all" of your expenses into the equation is a little disingenuous IMHO. that said , driving for Uber will increase your costs, and potentially make your regular service, more regular. then of course you have a car that had no tax benefits before, to one that you now can claim depreciation, fuel and maintenance etc.

Spot on.

Looking at my figures, I'm grossing about $30 an hour and netting about half that. A full time job (say 50 weeks at 40 hours a week), would be $60K gross and a bit over $30K once I pay for the car and fuel and GST and stuff.

Not something to raise a family and pay a mortgage on, but fine for a retired person or a student.

 

[NoName]

If you're "already" paying Rego, maintenance, etc, the real cost to you can only truly be the "Uber Component" i.e. the increased miles on your clock, the fuel to do the drive (tax deductible) and your time. to add "all" of your expenses into the equation is a little disingenuous IMHO. that said , driving for Uber will increase your costs, and potentially make your regular service, more regular. then of course you have a car that had no tax benefits before, to one that you now can claim depreciation, fuel and maintenance etc.

This is exactly right. There are a lot of fixed costs that you suddenly effectively get a big discount on. Add interest on any car loan you might have taken out to buy your vehicle as well. Driving one night a week I would be surprised if I end up paying any tax on the uber earnings at all. Most likely I will make a tax loss on it.

 

[bismarck]

I don't understand the negativity towards the surge pricing from a taxi vs uber perspective. A business is entitled to use whatever pricing structure they want. If the customer doesn't like it they will vote with their feet. It doesn't look like they're doing that.

I agree. I quite like the surge as sometimes I just really want to get home and am, in fact, willing to pay more to do so.

Whereas, with a taxi you've got no choice but to stand on the curb and just hope one drives past empty.

 

[N860CR]

The issue I have with surge pricing is that it's effectively "made legal" the always dodgy acts taken by taxi drivers during peak periods. The main difference being that by "making legal" high demand pricing increases, we've handed all control over to an offshore third party with no clear indication of how said pricing is set.

I still think that public transport pricing does need to be somehow regulated.

 

[Deleted member]

This is classic supply and demand economics, I am in favour of it.

The issue I have with surge pricing is that it's effectively "made legal" the always dodgy acts taken by taxi drivers during peak periods. The main difference being that by "making legal" high demand pricing increases, we've handed all control over to an offshore third party with no clear indication of how said pricing is set.

I still think that public transport pricing does need to be somehow regulated.

 

[Aussie_flyer]

So you just wait it out if you're concerned about price. Surge pricing doesnt bother me at all. The prices are already so reasonable

 

[Quickstatus]

This is classic supply and demand economics, I am in favour of it.

Thats the problem with regulated pricing. It distorts the market and usually comes with giving an operator a monopoly.

Buses and trains - their prices are regulated in return they have a monopoly over their mode of travel.
Taxi prices are regulated and for a while they had a monopoly over point to point travel.

Both are not shining examples of Excellence.

Yes regulate the market but don't distort supply and demand.

So you just wait it out if you're concerned about price. Surge pricing doesnt bother me at all. The prices are already so reasonable

In KL I waited about 5 minutes for surge pricing to drop from 2.5x back to 1x. Not a biggie.

 

[Hvr]

The issue I have with surge pricing is that it's effectively "made legal" the always dodgy acts taken by taxi drivers during peak periods. The main difference being that by "making legal" high demand pricing increases, we've handed all control over to an offshore third party with no clear indication of how said pricing is set.

I still think that public transport pricing does need to be somehow regulated.

It is regulated. Just not how you want it to be regulated.

Let's never forget that for decades the taxi industry through their representatives refused to modernise and even consider that their customers had any rights. They sought only to line their own pockets through restricting competition (i.e. taxi plates) and imposing surcharges such as the usurious 10% CabCharge fee which was later lowered to a still unjustifiable 5%.