Carbon Tax

[Oneworldplus2]

This ABC clip says it all.

Experts warn carbon tax will not work - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[connieguy]

... that people/organisations have been profiting from the scaremongering and wish to continue to do so.

What is happening to the ice cube in the Arctic and the increased Methane releases is happening. It will melt away and the Methane release will kick into high gear. People have been saying this for a long time. You may call that AGW scaremongering and I may call the statements being made by the Libs and the coal miners as anti AGW scaremongering lies.

However while all this was happening and no one was doing anything, the ice cube continued to melt and the methane release increased. Now it is too late as by 2015 we will see virtually ice free Arctic summers and vastly increased levels of Methane release.

It may well be that, like the movie "On the Beach", the southern coast of Australia may well become an idea place to live for the next 50 years or so. That is if the Desal plants can get enough power to sustain the good folks in Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne and the off shore ocean doesn't become a Dead Zone.

Sorry today is not a good day. I really thought we had until 2020 or later to do something but the most recent ice cube volume changes and the new findings about why the ice cube is melting so fast were the last nails in the coffin.

This will be my last comment in this thread as there is really nothing more to say other than "Good Luck to us all".

 

[cove]

Oneworldplus2 this Carbon Tax is now ready to go thru Parliament. It's ok both of us can credit card the price rises!We never seem to fit into a category that gets compensated for anything .......by the way welcome back to Australia........we get back on Thursday!

 

[rechoboam]

What is happening to the ice cube in the Arctic and the increased Methane releases is happening. It will melt away and the Methane release will kick into high gear. People have been saying this for a long time. You may call that AGW scaremongering and I may call the statements being made by the Libs and the coal miners as anti AGW scaremongering lies.

However while all this was happening and no one was doing anything, the ice cube continued to melt and the methane release increased. Now it is too late as by 2015 we will see virtually ice free Arctic summers and vastly increased levels of Methane release.

It may well be that, like the movie "On the Beach", the southern coast of Australia may well become an idea place to live for the next 50 years or so. That is if the Desal plants can get enough power to sustain the good folks in Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne and the off shore ocean doesn't become a Dead Zone.

Sorry today is not a good day. I really thought we had until 2020 or later to do something but the most recent ice cube volume changes and the new findings about why the ice cube is melting so fast were the last nails in the coffin.

This will be my last comment in this thread as there is really nothing more to say other than "Good Luck to us all".

Maybe if the greens weren't spending all their political capital on a carbon tax which everyone sees will achieve nothing, there would have been more space to convey the reality of the science.

 

[Sprucegoose]

No I do not.

Well at least that is reassuring

I'm an engineer and I look at the data.

How do scientists feel about engineers encroaching their tuff?

May I ask you a question? Do you have a financial interest which requires you to NOT believe AGW is happening?&lt;br&gt;<br>

No, I am cynical about anyone pushing something where there is a classic oportunity for wealth redistribution

Seems I got it wrong and 2015 is when we will see a virtually ice free Arctic Summer:

Happy to be proved wrong, get back to us.

That Flannery chap said we would all run out of water...now we have floods!!!!!

 

[gumpy]

So are you suggesting we should not carry our weight and become a climate pirate that lives off the efforts of other nations who are willing to pull their weight?

Hey catchy new name:

Australia, the Climate Pirate.

Time to fit out the Queen Anne's Revenge (Black beards ship) and go take advantage of those other nations that are willing to join the global community and pull their weight.

Yep, i'm all for the countries that can actually make a difference making the difference and charging the rest of the world via increased export costs.

Your Climate Pirate comment is rather lame and childish, grow up.

 

[gumpy]

Anyway some recently published short term very simple data projections about the ice cube floating in the Arctic Sea will make all this irreverent. Seems I got it wrong and 2015 is when we will see a virtually ice free Arctic Summer:

View attachment 2941

Oh BTW the scientists believe they have found out why the ice cube is melting 3 times faster than they modelled in the IPCC report:
Rapid melting of Arctic sea ice possibly explained - Nfld. & Labrador - CBC News

Bottom line is there is now nothing we can do to stop the ice cube melting nor will we be able to stop the resultant increase in Methane release in the Arctic, which will drive global temperatures to levels which will totally coughC this planet. You think the Global Economic Crisis was bad, well baby that was nothing compared to what is in the pipe line.

Had we (the whole world) started really doing something about CO2 when Kyota was created and signed by all nations, we may have had a chance. But thanks to the efforts of mainly Australia and the "Green House Mafia" (please Google it), Kyoto was turned into a do nothing process and so it has remained.

But hey what do I know? I'm just an engineer who understands complex processes and has never really been focused on money. I'm now really glad my 2 children will not have more children as I will not have any grandchildren to ask me why we did nothing to stop this happening.

Anyway you guys are right, the Carbon Tax will be a waste of time and money but not for the reason you believe.

Churchill got it very right when he said of the gathering storm he saw in Europe:

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…

Seems we humans never learn.

If it's going to happen by 2015 then there's no point human's doing anything, it's going to happen like it or not. We need to get on with it.

Don't quote Churchill, that quote had nothing to do with CC, you have no idea what he'd think about this situation.

Also based on that quote you think all of humanity will be like "yes we now need a carbon tax" even if the ice will all melt by 2015?

You have a lot to gain from a carbon tax as offsets can be generated by your work, esp if overseas countries put in an ets as well.

Gowatson you're an idealist. I hope you continue your work from a sustainability perspective but you truly think this tax is the solution but it's not going to solve anything. It's just a massive waste of time and resources.

Looks like the methane will be released by 2015. I'm sure human's will work a way through it.

In your case go tell your kids there's going to be nothing left for them and that the world will end.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Climate Change.....hold on. 10% will be going to the U.N.


10% of Australia's Carbon Tax given to the United Nations
[video=youtube;xv3OLKsQ83k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv3OLKsQ83k&amp;feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[dfcatch]

I have an idea... my SC's aren't looking too healthy for my next membership year - so I could come work for you GoWatson, and I'd be happy to fly around everywhere with you, earn WP+PG, and you could educate me on the ins and outs of renewable energy

 

[eastwest101]

I think Serfty covered the questions pretty well but here are my 5 answers:

1) I work in the minerals industry

2) Both I and my employer will experience a loss from the Carbon Dioxide Tax, my australian owned employer - from an increase in the input costs which they can't pass onto customes because our competitors don't have a CO2 tax. The business competes in a globally competative market, our customers won't pay the CO2 tax because the can source minerals from alternative suppliers, the tax will come out of profit margins and eventually out of shareholders dividends.

3) Its not about politics - I have no problem paying tax within reason to support government services or infrastructure, however targetted taxation generally results in market distortions and evasion techniques that can have unintended consequences. As others have said - leaving politics out of it and looking at economics and the justification for the tax (to reduce the global composition of CO2 in the earths atmosphere) - they are both weak - as the proposed scheme is ineffective in reducing CO2 and simply redistributes wealth. If you want to have a wealth redistribution tax then fine - make that argument - it may even have merit - but don't dress it up as a "save the world tax".

4) The evidence is clear that the climate has changed over the last 4.5 billion years controlled by a lot of cycles - some of which we understand, some probably not even discovered yet.

5) The belief about whether it is man made or not is the crux of the issue, I would be sure that there would be a number of natural global climate cycles and some possible unquantified contribution by humans burning fossil fuels. I emphasize the word possible - becase its clear that scientific understanding on the subject is changing and incomplete, otherwise the computer models wouldn't be massively oversimplified projections that have been proven to be wrong. This is the most imporatant and legitimate question to ask.

6) Science has a pretty fair idea of what happens when global temperatures rise and fall by looking at the past, life goes on and the planet and all its inhabitants adapt. Massive and fast temp and changes to the earths atmosphere are in the geological record which is also - like most science - partially complete. This question is predicated on scare tactics. As some others have said:

"Its easy to stop climate change - just stop all cosmic radiation, stop all plate tectonics and volcanism, stop the tilt of the earth, stop all magnetism and ionization, stop all carbon based life and decompostion of it, stop all natural climate cycles including ocean currents and stop all variations in the the sun shining."

 

[eastwest101]

Just realized that a lot of arguments can be boiled down to the following summary:

The science isn't settled.

Global consensus about what to do isn't there yet - hence Copenhagen debacle and Rudd's implosion a-la "7:30 report-land"

For those that do believe the science is settled - the proposed scheme wont reduce CO2 emissions (see last point).

Its execution will be a political broken promise with the electorate and has been poorly explained.

EU experience suggests carbon trading schemes close industries, export jobs and are prone to manipulation & corruption

The economic consequences are the redistribution of a bottomless "magic pudding" i.e. If no-one is being punished then where is the economic incentive to de-carbonize?

The world's economy is now getting close to "global", interconnected but also competetive and mobile, I suspect different industries will relocate to different juristictions/locations more frequently to counteract the effects of national governments

 

[Dyslexic traveler]

I think it's time to get rid of all the carbon on the planet and then all Die that will fix this carbon problems carbon is evil and must be destroyed thank god we have Julia she will save us all and give us money to make it all better and when she fixes that we will all get free insulation and the fix the boat people and then she will save us from ourselves Fantasy land the happiest kingdom of then all

 

[oz_mark]

Well, this is something to look forward to. The governments plan for my situation:

[TABLE="class: stdtable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableImpactRow"]...the average price impact would be:[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"]$579 per year ($11 per week)[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"] The carbon price will have a modest impact on prices of 0.7 per cent over 2012-13, as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI). [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableTotalAmountRow"] ...total annual Government assistance would be:
[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableTotalAmount resultsTableTotalAmountRow, colspan: 2"]$3 per year[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

$3 a year???

 

[clifford]

Page 7 of today's AFR makes for interesting reading. Headline: Abbott slams economists.*

Apparently, australia's economists are of low quality because they say the governments system is better then the oppositions direct action. That is gold! Hate the governments carbon tax if you like but the alternative is worse. All those wanting Abbott as PM, be careful what you wish for.

* sorry no link as I'm in iPhone and I believe the financial review is subscription only.

I don't think politically-oriented comments are welcome (or indeed allowed) here.

 

[nlagalle]

Well I have just returned from the weekend in Canberra as I had to attend the "lockup" this morning. Wasted 3 hours of my life.. Why have a media lockup at 9am??? ggrr!! they did it last year for the Henry Tax Review! I know i will be one of the 1 out of 10 who will be worse off..

on another note, Adam Bandt (greens MP for Melbourne) was on my flight home. After chatting with Drewbles, we wondered if: he used FF points for the flight (NOT!), or paid the carbon offset (highly doubt it!). I actually felt like telling him to practice what he preaches and ride his bike home from Canberra! :mrgreen:

My only consolation for the weekend was another 80sc (thanks double SC promo) and hopefully about 10k in Priority club points!

p.s. I do have all the documents as PDF's. If you are interested, PM me and I will send you a link to download them all.

 

[DC3]

The carbon tax is merely an enhancement which the Government is to introduce. So we will all be better off, won't we? So, the sooner the better?

 

[zig]

Well, this is something to look forward to. The governments plan for my situation:

[TABLE="class: stdtable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableImpactRow"]...the average price impact would be:
[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"]$579 per year ($11 per week)
[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"]The carbon price will have a modest impact on prices of 0.7 per cent over 2012-13, as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableTotalAmountRow"]...total annual Government assistance would be:
[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableTotalAmount resultsTableTotalAmountRow, colspan: 2"]$3 per year
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


$3 a year???

Yup, I'm another one in the $3 Club! Maybe we can get together and share a coffee one day with the compensation. I mean really, why bother, it will cost them more to administer the $3 compensation.

 

[ethernet]

As pointed out, $23 is not the end of the world - can be suffered. If distribution can gold plate and extract 10 cents, the so can the generators - given the existing regulation.

Because there is no endpoint or roadmap specified for future increases, the bankers will have to err on the side of caution for whole of life project + residuals.

The electricity generators stated they need 8-20 year certainty, as if the Carbon price rises to $80
in x years they will have to bump electricity prices up by x*5 cents to correct for future value returns.
Thanks to clever lawyers, they can sell forward and buyback on residuals, borrowing now, so that future tax
is going to be low. Peak demand prices will be eye-popping. That tax structuring will also cost end consumers.

As for create jobs, I doubt whether Australia will grow organic nuclear capability. The is no local solar cell production, and no wind turbine industry. Now if we import the goodies or Natural Gas to electricity shipping container kit - that is not the smartest move.

Treasury may be simpletons, but business that sees future value uncertainty, are going to raise prices over and above models that assume flat proportionate increases and no more.

The only country in the world with one - crazy.

 

[Kendall Roy]

I've said it once and I'll say it again... this is just one massive SOCIALIST Wealth Distribution exercise!

 

[straitman]

Well, this is something to look forward to. The governments plan for my situation:

[TABLE="class: stdtable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableImpactRow"]...the average price impact would be:[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"]$579 per year ($11 per week)[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableImpactRow"] The carbon price will have a modest impact on prices of 0.7 per cent over 2012-13, as measured by the Consumer Price Index (CPI).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: resultsTableItemTitle resultsTableTotalAmountRow"] ...total annual Government assistance would be:[/TD]
[TD="class: resultsTableTotalAmount resultsTableTotalAmountRow, colspan: 2"]$3 per year[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


$3 a year???

That's what you get from loving the Queen of Hearts so much :!: