Carbon Tax

[drron]

That seems to fit roughly with what i thought above: the difference between the baseline number and the current/ anticipated growth. I.e. that left unchecked emissions would grow to 630ish mt by 2020 and this plan aims to bring them back under 500. Does that sound about right?

So you wonder why we are cynical when it comes to the predictions of economists and politicians?

In 2000 we emitted 496 mt of CO2,10 years later it is 543 my so we assume in another 10 years it will be 630 mt.Wow.


Or in 2008 Garnaut estimated the tax at $26 a tonne would earn ~ $8 billion rising to ~ 411 billion in 2022 but this year it will raise $11.5 billion in 2012/3.Ie 40% more even though from 2007 to 2010 the emissions have gone from 542 mt to a whopping 543 mt-less than 0.2% rise!


I hope that you can understand when some of us are underwhelmed.Frankly this is a wealth redistribution tax masquerading as an environmental tax.


The delicious irony is that both Rudd and Howard went to the 2007 election with plans for an ETS either of which would have done more for the environment-albeit at greater cost.Shows you what a great negotiator Bob Brown is.

 

[777]

So you wonder why we are cynical when it comes to the predictions of economists and politicians?

Actually, to some extent yeah. I'm cynical of the spin but i'm not cynical of the principle that the you need to compare the results under the scheme to is the amount that would otherwise have happened in the absence of action. I'm pleased to see that we have seen some stabilisation in emissions (in part as the result of the GFC, in part from rising fuel prices, and in part from other initiatives already in place i suspect) already. Surely the relevant figure is the amount of C02 that will not be produced as a result of taking action?

After reading several of your posts I'm genuinely confused as to whether your problem is that this is too much or not enough?

 

[drron]

Actually, to some extent yeah. I'm cynical of the spin but i'm not cynical of the principle that the you need to compare the results under the scheme to is the amount that would otherwise have happened in the absence of action. I'm pleased to see that we have seen some stabilisation in emissions (in part as the result of the GFC, in part from rising fuel prices, and in part from other initiatives already in place i suspect) already. Surely the relevant figure is the amount of C02 that will not be produced as a result of taking action?

After reading several of your posts I'm genuinely confused as to whether your problem is that this is too much or not enough?

It is too much tax with not enough emission control.
And unfortunately part of long term ALP policy-
Death and taxes, lies and truth

 

[777]

It is too much tax with not enough emission control.

Are you of the view that the alternative will be any better? Again, we are talking about the relative merits of different approaches here - do you think the "direct action" fund (which, bare in mind will also be paid for by your taxes) is likely to reduce emissions more cheaply and efficiently

People seem to criticise the carbon tax/ ETS idea on the false assumption that the alternative is the status quo, or simply imagining there's no such thing as global warming. It's not. The alternative is Liberal party the Coalition will spend Billions of tax payer dollars paying polluters not to pollute. They claim they will get to the exact same figures you just criticised but they would do so from consolidated revenue with no market or price signals in the mix.

Putting aside (legitimate) skepticism about the ability of the government to implement it there's actually pretty good reasons why pricing carbon is the preferred option to reducing carbon emissions.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

777 - Please look at the ABC clip I posted earlier. Introducing a Carbon Tax has done nothing in EU.

 

[nlagalle]

777 - Please look at the ABC clip I posted earlier. Introducing a Carbon Tax has done nothing in EU.

And one thing people forget here - a fair whack of power in the EU is generated by nuclear too.. How much is generated in Australia? zip... I hate it when people compare us to the EU..

 

[Oneworldplus2]

And one thing people forget here - a fair whack of power in the EU is generated by nuclear too.. How much is generated in Australia? zip... I hate it when people compare us to the EU..

Not the power source either. The trading scheme is a joke and it hasn't done anything to reduce CO2 I suggest you watch the clip too.

 

[drron]

No I'm thinking that there are other solutions out there-such as nuclear power which are not going to be considered because of the paranoia of the greens.If the Greens really believe in Armageddon they should be prepared to discuss all options.
There are still lots of Nimbys.We cant have a wind farm here because it will endanger the Orange bellied parrot.
No more dams-hence ruling out cleaner hydropower.
Anyway emissions are going to drop when the world realises growth depending on ever increasing debt is not sustainable.The GFC will look like a picnic.Some good articles in Vanity Fair-
Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds | Business | Vanity Fair
When Irish Eyes Are Crying | Business | Vanity Fair

And despite your fervent belief in disaster I do not share it.The world has warmed before and corrected itself.According to the graph produced earlier in this thread we were overdue for a period of warming.Warming commenced well before the massive increases in CO2 emissions-sorry it isn't all man induced.Then there are the predictions from climate changers that I already have harped on-already some of them are out-eg May 2011 in australia was colder than the average of the last 40 years-again from a map included here from gowatson-certainly not a climate change sceptic.His glib answer that well it is winter had me incredulous-if it is colder than average it doesn't matter whether it is winter or summer-it is colder not warmer.
Then there are the Greenies out today blaming the QLD floods and Cyclone Yasi on Climate change-absolute rubbish-as I said the floods were predicted here by a long range weather forecaster who studies sunspots etc.He has the runs on the board.

But back to the point-this is a wealth redistribution tax with the bennies to come before the next election and the kick in the pants after.I'm happy for you that you believe this is an environmental story.I just dont buy it.

 

[Kendall Roy]

Interesting quote from the 2GB site:

"Am currently in the Qantas First Class Lounge at Sydney Airport
I am looking at Tim Flannery and Tony Windsor having a great old chat. Both of them on taxpayer salaries, both on taxpayer funded tickets, and both of them happily imposing an extra tax on Australians to help wreck our economy and future.
AND, they are both getting on JET AIRCRAFT to fly overseas. Maybe they should be on sailing boating instead!
What a joke

Rick Edwards"

Probably a good thing I wasn't this fellow in the lounge at the same time!

 

[nlagalle]

Not the power source either. The trading scheme is a joke and it hasn't done anything to reduce CO2 I suggest you watch the clip too.

Don't worry I am with you on this one!! I know it is a joke!!

 

[Dyslexic traveler]

What Pisses me off is that the keep calling it carbon pollution its not pollution I think that we all need to do our bit for our planet but, I am over paying tax on tax on tax this goverment would have me taxed out of exictenc I work hard all my life just so a socialist goverment can give it away.

 

[777]

What Pisses me off is that the keep calling it carbon pollution its not pollution

You might want to invest some of that hard earned in a dictionary.

 

[cove]

Wayne at least we can credit card it and fly somewhere!

 

[Dyslexic traveler]

I may also try putting my spectacles on when typing on my iPhone thank you for the kind observations 777 I will head to Reading tomorrow for the a macquarie I must say it's good being dyslexic as I can always pray to My Dog Cove I worked out that Monday and Tuesday I pay to run the rooms and pay my staff Wednesday and Thursday I pay the tax man and Friday is the day I get payed but their is always a bright side to this and that's you can pay on your card till they take that away

 

[drron]

An interesting thought-if 90% of australians need to be compensated by a rise in expenses of $10 a week it must mean our economy is about to fall over surely?
But Wayne rest easy.Julia has a very good use for the money she takes off you-she will try to buy the vote of the masses!

 

[777]

I may also try putting my spectacles on when typing on my iPhone thank you for the kind observations 777 I will head to Reading tomorrow for the a macquarie I must say it's good being dyslexic as I can always pray to Cove I worked out that Monday and Tuesday I pay to run the rooms and pay my staff Wednesday and Thursday I pay the tax man and Friday is the day I get payed but their is always a bright side to this and that's you can pay on your card till they take that away

I didn't mean the typos - guilty of that myself. Just thought you might want to look up "pollution".

 

[rewardedforspending]

carbon tax is the biggest scam of the century, which will bring the australian economy to its knees, without making one bit of difference to carbon pollution, how come they want to shut down our coal energy industry but in the meantime ship coal to china so as they can have their coal energy electricity, so how does that do any good to the environment,

 

[medhead]

carbon tax is the biggest scam of the century, which will bring the australian economy to its knees, without making one bit of difference to carbon pollution, how come they want to shut down our coal energy industry but in the meantime ship coal to china so as they can have their coal energy electricity, so how does that do any good to the environment,

This sounds like the carbon tax will destroy Australian manufacturing argument. Sorry, I reckon the fact that they can get someone in china or India to work in a factory for $1 a day will send Australian manufacturing offshore not a carbon tax.

As for shipping coal to china, do they ship steaming coal to china or coking coal? China has massive coal reserves I wouldn't think they'd need Australian coal to burn in a power plant. More likely they are shipping over coking coal, which is used for steal making. China has poor quality coking coal.

To Gumpy I see you still do not understand the difference between "our standard of living" and "my lifestyle". These are vastly different. Standard of living is about things like public health, clean water, disease free food, sewerage, the roads, public order.

Standard of living does not mean everyone doing what I do. Such a suggestion would be laughable, if it wasn't so offensive. What I don't have a right to earn a living? Because somehow me flying means Australians can't have refrigeration.

Anyway, don't worry I've planted a tree in accordance with Abbott's answer.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

If the Government is so serious about CO2/Climate Change/Global Warming, why is the Solar Rebate getting reduced and eventually taken off the table? Shouldn't the Government be giving people 'more' incentives to reduce carbon and lower emissions? If l'm $10 a week better off doing nothing, why even bother changing my daily habits?

 

[AnonymousCoward]

An interesting thought-if 90% of australians need to be compensated by a rise in expenses of $10 a week it must mean our economy is about to fall over surely?

Revenue neutrality would be the most efficient way of taxing people.

Polluting products will be, relatively, more expensive. Up to each individual whether they wish to pay more for a polluting product, or change their habits to buy things that produce less pollution. By setting the rate high enough, enough people will change their habits to produce less pollution