Carbon Tax

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Voting system doesn't change the fact that the GST did not get greater than 50% of the vote. Howard also lied about the GST and then didn't get a mandate for a GST even if he got the majority of seats. If you read the quote from my friend you should be able to understand the point. Gillard has just as much mandate for changing her mind as Howard did according to our electoral system. People who scream about mandates and new elections seem to lack an understanding of our electoral system.
The result about any election is not solely driven and decided by a sole issue. So your statement that the GST 'did not get greater than 50%', needs to be understood in that context. Howard changed his mind and then sought a mandate, correctly and honestly. Gillard lied directly to the people and will pay by an absolutely crushing defeat at the next election, deservedly.
 
If you start the chart from the peak that occurred in 1998, that would seem to be the conclusion. But as 1998 was not when global temperature measurements started, as you know, then it would be an incorrect assumption. Especially when you had all the other data points to consider. I would call it picking points on the chart to try to make a conclusion that was desired and that is not good science.

So has global temperature continued to climb before and after 1998? Yes of course it has. You did read that 2010 tied for the hottest year on record and that the last decade was the hottest on record?

Here is the global distribution of temperature rise averaged over 2010. Not a pretty picture, especially in the Arctic with the rapidly melting ice cube called the Arctic Ice Cap.

View attachment 3097

I'm sorry but you are interpreting your graphs quite incorrectly.These graphs are how much the temperature is above/below the baseline.the baseline is different for the four series-here it is if you like.
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[TD]So the graph does not show the temperature has been rising at an accelerated rate since 1998-in fact the rate of rise has declined despite the ever upwards rise of CO2 levels.The month with the highest average temperature was still in 1998,not 2010.And of course 2011 has started out cooler than 2010.
The predictions of temperature rise are based on the trend line which from 1979 has been rising at the rate of 0.13-0.17C per decade.

As anomyouscoward rightly points out it depends on where you start that trend line.He obviously trys to discredit me by my picking 1998 which as I said had the highest average temperature month in the last 160 years.But then why does the IPCC use 1979 as the start of their trend line?Oh yes there are all sorts of explanations but it also just happens to be the coolest year in the last 80 years therefore steepening the trend line.

And just remember the 1960s and 70s.Climate scientists then talked of Climate Change.But then it was the coming ice age as the trend line for 40 years was down-
Another Ice Age? - TIME

And a quote from that article-
Scientists have
found other indications of global cooling. For one thing there has been a noticeable expansion of the great belt of dry, high-altitude polar winds — the so-called circumpolar vortex—that sweep from west to east around the top and bottom of the world. Indeed it is the widening of this cap of cold air that is the immediate cause of Africa's drought. By blocking moisture-bearing equatorial winds and preventing them from bringing rainfall to the parched sub-Sahara region, as well as other drought-ridden areas stretching all the way from Central America to the Middle East and India, the polar winds have in effect caused the Sahara and other deserts to reach farther to the south. Paradoxically, the same vortex has created quite different weather quirks in the U.S. and other temperate zones. As the winds swirl around the globe, their southerly portions undulate like the bottom of a skirt. Cold air is pulled down across the Western U.S. and warm air is swept up to the Northeast. The collision of air masses of widely differing temperatures and humidity can create violent storms—the Midwest's recent rash of disastrous tornadoes, for example.

So the argument used by Gowatson explaining how the cold air in the western US was evidence of global warming was used then as evidence of a coming ice age.Also notice the reference to the recent Midwest's rash of disasterous tornadoes-then of course a sign of global cooling but now of global warming.

And anomyouscoward I really didn't get the point of your putdown about my having to go to a University Library to read a peer reviewed journal.In fact I read a peer reviewed journal at least every week.I read them at home,on holidays,even in a plane.I have read them in a Hospital library and shock horror I have even read them on the internet.However I do not just read those articles that agree with my particular biases.You obviously categorise me as a "denier".I am not.I have said I believe the Earth has warmed.I am sceptical though of many of the claims.Probably because I was involved in the Climate debate in the 60s and 70s.I was President of the Sydney university conservation society in 1969.We even had a debate at the Uni of the Effect on the Great barrier reef.
Some things just aren't that new.
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The obvious answer is that the government is setting a price and will let the market decide. That's why they are not undertaking direct action. Seriously you target so called "white elephants" and suggest that money is just allocated to research, an approach that has massive potential to create white elephants. I think it is much better to apply a price and let the market react. That is apparently the most efficient way to do this things.

As for the robin hood bits, I would expect that to change with time and as it moves to emission trading. A key point that is missed the opening arrangement is not fixed in stone.

But that's my point - they are not just letting the market decide, they are reimbursing a significant portion of the Australian population directly as well. Why? In order to win votes/support. If Juliar and her comrades really believed in this issue they would not indulge in wealth distribution. But that's too much to ask from a former secretary of the Socialist Forum and her masters the Watermelons...

You say you expect this to change... with Socialists in charge it will only get worse for the 'rich'.
 
Thanks for that Oneworldplus2 - you've managed to lower the debate even further than I thought possible. Any more where they came from because you may as well insult everyone's intelligence whilst you're on a roll.

Mate, the debate began on a low rung the instant Juliar revealed her 'change of mind' to the Australian public. :lol:
 
The result about any election is not solely driven and decided by a sole issue. So your statement that the GST 'did not get greater than 50%', needs to be understood in that context. Howard changed his mind and then sought a mandate, correctly and honestly. Gillard lied directly to the people and will pay by an absolutely crushing defeat at the next election, deservedly.

I love your language for it just revels your party political position and basic undermines anything you say on this topic. "Howard changed his mind" vs "Gillard lied". Sorry Howard also directly lied. Why can you accept that Gillard also changed her mind? Party politics? Howard might have sought a mandate but the record clearly shows he did not get a mandate from the 1998 election.

The Crikey link provided by drron provides a clear outline about how the 1998 election was basically a one issue election. Compared to the last election where a carbon tax was a truly one issue among many.

I'm happy if you continue to apply double standards depending on politics just don't tell me about it.
 
But that's my point - they are not just letting the market decide, they are reimbursing a significant portion of the Australian population directly as well. Why? In order to win votes/support.

do you even know what is involved. In something like 3 years it transforms into a trading system. Carbon price set up front to start and then the market decides the price via the trading system.

As for buying votes; quick question what was your opinion about an Australian government giving out $5000 cash payments to anyone who had a baby? You supported it? Oh so buying votes is ok then.

Finally, petty name calling is not a debate.
 
But that's my point - they are not just letting the market decide, they are reimbursing a significant portion of the Australian population directly as well. Why? In order to win votes/support. If Juliar and her comrades really believed in this issue they would not indulge in wealth distribution. But that's too much to ask from a former secretary of the Socialist Forum and her masters the Watermelons...You say you expect this to change... with Socialists in charge it will only get worse for the 'rich'.
It's their last throw of the dice for wealth redistribution now that communism has well and truly died and only exists in certain Australian universities....
 
do you even know what is involved. In something like 3 years it transforms into a trading system. Carbon price set up front to start and then the market decides the price via the trading system.As for buying votes; quick question what was your opinion about an Australian government giving out $5000 cash payments to anyone who had a baby? You supported it? Oh so buying votes is ok then.Finally, petty name calling is not a debate.
There are two carbon trading markets operating at present. Can you answer why our carbon is double their price?
 
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There are two carbon trading markets operating at present. Can you answer why our carbon is double their price?

Do I really need to answer that given there is a report that goes into the details on setting the price. You could read that report if you were really interested.

However, to indulge the question. It is probably higher for the same reason that the European price was set higher at the start. Now that the market is determining the price it has come down in cost. :shock, horror: I guess that means carbon isn't as expensive as they first thought. If it isn't as expensive, then I guess we can conclude that the effect on prices isn't as bad as they first thought. So we can expect a lower carbon price in the future. All of which puts these screams about destroying the economy into perspective.
 
There are two carbon trading markets operating at present. Can you answer why our carbon is double their price?
A few suggestions:

  • We make better quality carbon??
  • Our CO2 is more pure??
  • Its Australian - it must be better!
  • Everything is more expensive in Australia
  • Its the strong Aussie dollar


hmm, come to think of it, maybe I don't have any suggestions.
 
I love your language for it just revels your party political position and basic undermines anything you say on this topic. "Howard changed his mind" vs "Gillard lied". Sorry Howard also directly lied. Why can you accept that Gillard also changed her mind? Party politics? Howard might have sought a mandate but the record clearly shows he did not get a mandate from the 1998 election.

.

There is a huge difference. Howard changed his mind and then asked the public did they support him in his new direction. The public supported him which allowed him to change his direction. Gillard changed her mind, but did not ask the public if they support her in her new direction, which makes her change of mind a direct lie. So that is why we can say Howard changed his mind, whereas Gillard lied.

Australia only creates around 1.5% of the worlds pollution. A minor change to this pollution level is nothing in the scheme of the world. So many of Australia jobs are going offshore as it is - this stupid tax will only make offshoring faster - and will help reinforce Australia's uncompetitiveness. We are so lucky that we have the mining boom in Australia - without it we would be heading for disaster.
 
There is a huge difference. Howard changed his mind and then asked the public did they support him in his new direction. The public supported him which allowed him to change his direction. Gillard changed her mind, but did not ask the public if they support her in her new direction, which makes her change of mind a direct lie. So that is why we can say Howard changed his mind, whereas Gillard lied.

That is the biggest load of HS. Firstly, let's ignore the fact that changing your mind means it wasn't a lie in the first place. The fact remains they both went to an election having made a statement that later turned out to be false due to changing their mind. They were both were able to form a government despite getting less than 50% of the preferred vote. They both changed their mind. Holding an election, or not, cannot change the fact that they both made false statements. There is no difference at all. Such an apparent double standard, which I can only assume is related to your political views, deminisishs anything you (or anyone else) have to say on this topic. If I want to get Abbott's opinion I'll go to the horse's mouth, not the ventrilogist's dummy blindly repeating his mantra.
 
That is the biggest load of HS. Firstly, let's ignore the fact that changing your mind means it wasn't a lie in the first place. The fact remains they both went to an election having made a statement that later turned out to be false due to changing their mind. They were both were able to form a government despite getting less than 50% of the preferred vote. They both changed their mind. Holding an election, or not, cannot change the fact that they both made false statements. There is no difference at all. Such an apparent double standard, which I can only assume is related to your political views, deminisishs anything you (or anyone else) have to say on this topic. If I want to get Abbott's opinion I'll go to the horse's mouth, not the ventrilogist's dummy blindly repeating his mantra.
But julia also said in her first press conference as PM that if she were to introduce an ETS or carbon tax she would consult the Australian people first.So Double Jeopardy for for Julia V John H.
 
Well it sums it up. She said no tax and now we are dealing with a devastating tax and not mandated by the people. What arrogance!Luckily she is a one termer and you lot can go and follow another false god!

Just because I believe that the climate is changing, and that something needs to be done, doesn't mean that I support Julia Gillard, or her proposals.

So please do not conflate/confuse these two issues. We are discussing a carbon tax here, not the personal attributes or otherwise of Julia or the people here. There is no need to drag the debate down to ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to facts and science please.
 
But julia also said in her first press conference as PM that if she were to introduce an ETS or carbon tax she would consult the Australian people first.So Double Jeopardy for for Julia V John H.

Again, that does not change what came before. Besides there are many ways to consult the Australian people, not just via an election. This cough has been going on for months and there has been plenty of opportunity to comment on the proposal, I've done so directly with the government. But anyone who is trying to provide proper feedback is swamped by a sea of "no mandate", "Juliar" and "hold an election". It is a counter-productive waste of time. If we judge Abbott and his supporters on the quality of this debate then Australia is in trouble at the next election regardless of the result.

Just because I believe that the climate is changing, and that something needs to be done, doesn't mean that I support Julia Gillard, or her proposals.

So please do not conflate/confuse these two issues. We are discussing a carbon tax here, not the personal attributes or otherwise of Julia or the people here. There is no need to drag the debate down to ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to facts and science please.

Exactly
 
Just because I believe that the climate is changing, and that something needs to be done, doesn't mean that I support Julia Gillard, or her proposals.

So please do not conflate/confuse these two issues. We are discussing a carbon tax here, not the personal attributes or otherwise of Julia or the people here. There is no need to drag the debate down to ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to facts and science please.

Of course the climate is changing, has been doing so since the beginning of time.........successfully without human intervention.
 
Of course the climate is changing, has been doing so since the beginning of time.........successfully without human intervention.

Granted. It's not in a constant state, hence ice ages and the like. Can we move on to the next point now, which is the alleged existence of anthropogenic climate change?

So - do you believe human activity is impacting our climate? Yes or no. If you don't then your objection to a carbon tax is natural and you need to say no more about it. No point in putting a price on pollution if it makes no difference, is there? You can then leave the debate with your head held high and in the certain knowledge that you are right.
 
Of course the climate is changing, has been doing so since the beginning of time.........successfully without human intervention.

100% agree. Then we started burning fossil fuels to release their stored solar energy and in the process increased the amount of CO2, Methane and other GHGs in the atmosphere. These gasses have a unique physical ability to let pass the shorter energy wavelengths emitted by the sun to reach the surface and to thus warm the planet. All warm objects emit long wave energy. Unluckly for us, the GHGs absorb and re-radiate some of the heat energy the earth emits and some gets back to the surface to cause a small additional warming.

The basis of the following graph was from the power industry, sort of a brag statement showing how much power we have generated as our society grew and consumed more and more energy. What I did was to overlay the Ice core CO2 and temperature data over the power curve to see how well they fitted. As you can see they fit very well and to me was the indirect proof that I personally needed to believe in AGW. Your mileage may vary.

EnergyUsage200Years.jpg

Nasa has a nice web site that can explain all this much better than I can.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Experiments/PlanetEarthScience/GlobalWarming/index.php
 
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Thanks for that Oneworldplus2 - you've managed to lower the debate even further than I thought possible. Any more where they came from because you may as well insult everyone's intelligence whilst you're on a roll.

Oh - lighten up Smackbum :)

I think we can all have a good debate and still find time for the humorous side.

Besides- even if you don't find the joke a dig at Julia - I'm sure even she feels that way sometimes ;)
 
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