Carbon Tax

[cove]

Not me !
I am off to the US for work and catch up with the election on the side.

 

[whatmeworry]

True, but why cripple our market/economy when in the grand scheme of things, we are a drop in the ocean......

Yes Indeed, we can't interrupt our addiction to cheap goods!

The Chinese are currently giving Japan the cold shoulder over some islands in dispute. Japan is really getting hurt right now based on todays trade numbers.
Australia has to be very careful now we owe China and the rest of the world a chunk of change.
Meanwhile our manufacturing sector is shedding jobs everywhere with lots more to come.

I honestly think we should bring back tariffs if the Aussie stays high.

Short AUD......

That is a double edge sword. Currently it is the Chinese that is pumping billions into the construction sector in Australia keeping it alive as local developers can't get financing. If we start printing money they might take their money elsewhere.

 

[cove]

Most of what Ross Garnaut has helped to introduce has been wrong. Killing off our makers and exporters is quite despicable.
It is too late to reverse the free trade agreements.
Heck I don't know how we could try to fix this but I would not engage economists to study the problem!

 

[drron]

Most of what Ross Garnaut has helped to introduce has been wrong. Killing off our makers and exporters is quite despicable.
It is too late to reverse the free trade agreements.
Heck I don't know how we could try to fix this but I would not engage economists to study the problem!

And here are the facts courtesy of the IMF-

AUSTRALIA has the third most expensive currency in the world, and the most expensive of the world's 20 largest economies, International Monetary Fund estimates reveal.
The IMF's database shows goods and services costing $US100 ($A97) to produce in the US now cost $US41 to produce in India, $US67 in China, $US105 in Germany or Britain - but $US161 in Australia.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/aust...p-economies-20121022-281jh.html#ixzz2A4BIefD2

 

[Sprucegoose]

Not me !
I am off to the US for work and catch up with the election on the side.

How long are you away for Cove?

 

[simongr]

I think my net pay went up slightly in July as well. My understanding is that bracket creep causes net pay to fall as annual pay rises push you into the next higher tax bracket, which doesn't increase annually. But what would I know.

That is true - although I am used to annual net pay increases as the brackets at which different rates apply increase in line with CPI - or at least that used to be my experience.

Abolition of the Disaster levy probably. Nothing to do with bracket creep.

That would be - so pleased I was lucky enough to fund states that didnt insure themslves.

 

[medhead]

That is true - although I am used to annual net pay increases as the brackets at which different rates apply increase in line with CPI - or at least that used to be my experience.

I've only heard of that being the case for a fairly limited time period. I think either Keating and/or Costello had this in place but quickly removed it. But i recall both of them getting grief over bracket creep. There have also been a couple of years where the levels were manually raised.


Sent from the Throne

 

[777]

Clearly there are a number of people on this thread (and the electorate generally) who would be happy to pay 100%.

Personally, I will be electing the 0% option.

That's an excellent idea with one caveat: That you are happy to take 100% of the risk. Should it turn out that global warming and it does indeed come to pass that the costs of cleaning up the mess are considerably higher than the costs of attempting to prevent it (as widely predicted) would you be happy to have yourself and those who inherit your estate liable for the cost?

If the answer is yes, then i would have no problem at all with you taking that approach. I don't want my kids paying for your poor decisions though.

 

[777]

Depends on your interpretation of the facts.In june when the use of electricity fell,ie before the carbon tax,Yallourn power station was put out of action by a flood hence a drop in the most polluting brown coal power generation.So probably not the carbon tax that caused the drop in CO2 emissions.

That argument would be refuted by the fact that C02 emissions dropped across all states and not just Victoria wouldn't it?

 

[drron]

That argument would be refuted by the fact that C02 emissions dropped across all states and not just Victoria wouldn't it?

There is a National Grid now so I dont think that would be the case.Look at the graph in the article you quoted and the timing of the fall occurred with the flooding but before the Carbon tax came in.
As others have said there is a lot of obfuscation by Power Companies and governments so I dont think any of us can be certain of the truth.

 

[straitman]

That argument would be refuted by the fact that C02 emissions dropped across all states and not just Victoria wouldn't it?

There is a National Grid now so I dont think that would be the case.Look at the graph in the article you quoted and the timing of the fall occurred with the flooding but before the Carbon tax came in.
As others have said there is a lot of obfuscation by Power Companies and governments so I dont think any of us can be certain of the truth.

I actually think that the whole argument is a bit of a irrelevant.

Yallourn W power station never shut down and was only ever reduced to one turbine due the difficulty with coal supply caused by the Morwell river breaking into the open cut mine. If needed they could have run more turbines although coal supply would have been difficult and expensive.

 

[drron]

I actually think that the whole argument is a bit of a irrelevant.

Yallourn W power station never shut down and was only ever reduced to one turbine due the difficulty with coal supply caused by the Morwell river breaking into the open cut mine. If needed they could have run more turbines although coal supply would have been difficult and expensive.

But brown coal is the power source most productive of CO2 emissions therefore by shutting down part of their production would have a fair impact on CO2 emissions and that is what this report was about.

 

[777]

There is a National Grid now so I dont think that would be the case.Look at the graph in the article you quoted and the timing of the fall occurred with the flooding but before the Carbon tax came in.
As others have said there is a lot of obfuscation by Power Companies and governments so I dont think any of us can be certain of the truth.

As with this debate more generally i'm sure time and the accumulation of evidence is not on your side.

 

[drron]

As with this debate more generally i'm sure time and the accumulation of evidence is not on your side.

Maybe but maybe not.here is one from a peer reviewed journal-
http://www.rossmckitrick.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/scenarios.submitted.pdf

Now although the science of warming due to CO2 may be proven the computer modelling using that science is not neccessarily accurate.From that article the per capita emission of CO2 worldwide has not increased since 1980.The population has so emissions have risen.However if predictions for world population figures are accurate then to acheive the IPCCs worst case scenario the per capita increase in CO2 emissions would have to more than double.
Already many of the UNs predictions have not come to pass such as millions of climate change refugees by 2010 due to sea level rise,less record cold events.
Unfortunately I will long be gone by 2050 so even if I am right I wont be able to say I told you so and if you are right I wont hear you.

 

[whatmeworry]

Solar alone is not really the best.
Sent from the Throne

If a new type of battery is perfected, then solar might be a great option.

New Liquid Metal Battery could solve solar power problem - Video - Technology

 

[medhead]

If a new type of battery is perfected, then solar might be a great option.

New Liquid Metal Battery could solve solar power problem - Video - Technology

I'm on the phone so can't watch just yet. But I do know there was a pretty good liquid battery in use on King island (or somewhere like that) at one stage. I can't remember the details but it was good.

Of course, the big problem rest with the prices of direct grid connected systems vs solar -> battery [-> grid, maybe]. Use of batteries might be better as it internalises the energy use and doesn't require a grid. But no feed in tariff.

Sent from the Throne

 

[777]

Maybe but maybe not.here is one from a peer reviewed journal-
http://www.rossmckitrick.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/scenarios.submitted.pdf

Now although the science of warming due to CO2 may be proven the computer modelling using that science is not neccessarily accurate.From that article the per capita emission of CO2 worldwide has not increased since 1980.The population has so emissions have risen.However if predictions for world population figures are accurate then to acheive the IPCCs worst case scenario the per capita increase in CO2 emissions would have to more than double.

Surely an article that suggests total emissions may be less than a worse case scenario is essentially unremarkable? That's the point a outlining a worse case -- it as at one extreme of the prediction spectrum and it logically follows that even the forecaster thought that a range of other scenarios were more probable?

Already many of the UNs predictions have not come to pass such as millions of climate change refugees by 2010 due to sea level rise,less record cold events.
Unfortunately I will long be gone by 2050 so even if I am right I wont be able to say I told you so and if you are right I wont hear you.

I think you need to be careful with the distinction between a prediction and a scenario but in any case as you note there is a very high correlation between those who are global warming skeptics and those who will likely not live long enough to see the consequences. I would reasonably expect to be alive in 2050 and dependent on the government and the nation to be financially stable if i'm to enjoy the standard of retirement that those of your generation might reasonably expect.

As noted above, i would have no problem whatsoever with a climate skeptic who is willing to put some skin in the game but i'm yet to meet anyone who is actually happy to do it. The reality is that many who advocate for what i would argue is essentially a reckless approach (in an actuarial risk sense) do so largely because they no they can scoop up the benefits of it now and leave the costs for others.

 

[whatmeworry]

I'm on the phone so can't watch just yet. But I do know there was a pretty good liquid battery in use on King island (or somewhere like that) at one stage. I can't remember the details but it was good.

Of course, the big problem rest with the prices of direct grid connected systems vs solar -> battery [-> grid, maybe]. Use of batteries might be better as it internalises the energy use and doesn't require a grid. But no feed in tariff.

Sent from the Throne

I saw somewhere, they are doing a trial with local gas generators for neighbourhoods, 1 kilowatt (might be more). The generators are gas powered and the heated water used in the gas turbine generators can be used in the surrounding homes.

 

[medhead]

I saw somewhere, they are doing a trial with local gas generators for neighbourhoods, 1 kilowatt (might be more). The generators are gas powered and the heated water used in the gas turbine generators can be used in the surrounding homes.

Something like this: Ceramic Fuel Cells :: Welcome to Ceramic Fuel Cells ?

I'm pretty keen to install one of these, the early research notes said they could also be used for hot water and A/C or heating.

 

[straitman]

But brown coal is the power source most productive of CO2 emissions therefore by shutting down part of their production would have a fair impact on CO2 emissions and that is what this report was about.

So you are saying that one turbine working flat out would produce less emissions than several operating at low capacity.

I suspect that the difference is not that significant.