Citi Select (post March 2013) - ? worth $700 annual fee

[Hammando]

humph ............. screw Citibank.

Needed 10K Asia Miles to get me a J reward seat MEL-HKG-NKG - Amex transfer at 1:1 to both KF / AM - Citi to KF at 1.5:1 - to AM 2:1 - lucky only a pocketful of pts needed.

In terms of points per $ spend (general spend at least) the citi select earns the same as Amex.

Amex $1 = 1MR point = 1 AM
Citi $1 = 2 citi points = 1AM

 

[Hammando]

quokka77 good call on the Select. For me it is still a great card.

The Emirates MC although 1.5 points per $ has a point cap at 150,000 i think.

Might be worth while for you to get your Veda Access score. I think i paid $85 just to monitor it before you apply for any more credit cards. I know I found it useful after getting into the points game about 12 months ago and applying for a few different cards.

VedaScore | Your Credit and Identity

Also never ever ever get a Diners Card.

 

[markis10]

quokka77 good call on the Select. For me it is still a great card.........Also never ever ever get a Diners Card.

Why not get a Diners Card?

 

[Cruiser Elite]

In terms of points per $ spend (general spend at least) the citi select earns the same as Amex.

Amex $1 = 1MR point = 1 AM
Citi $1 = 2 citi points = 1AM

$1 spent on AMEX = 1.5Mr pts / $1 spent on Select = 2 Citibank Reward pts.

Citibank Reward pts transfer to KF at 1.5 Citibank Reward = 1 KF pt - eff earn 1.33 KF pt/$1
Citibank Reward pts transfer to AM at 2 Citibank Reward = 1 AM pt - eff earn 1 AM pt/$1

And of course AMEX earn 1.5MR pts/$1 - transfer 1:1 - eff earn 1.5 KF or AM/$1

Or have I got this wrong somewhere?

 

[Hammando]

Why not get a Diners Card?

Short answer is because the points are not worth the hassle of dealing with Diners.

Long answer is:

I applied for the Diners/MC combo to replace my Amex Plat charge card. I was drawn by the 3 velocity points for Diners, and aware I wouldn't be able to use the card at a lot of places, I was comfortable that the Mastercard with 1.25 points per $ would be a good back up. As a Select card holder I inquired with Diners, whether this would impact with my application with Diners being owned by Citi. I was told it wouldn't be an issue.

After my application the point earn was almost immediately enhanced to 2 velocity points for the Diners and 0.83 points for the MC.

They then gave me a hard limit rather than being able to use the card as a true charge card, and gave the reason that I was already an existing Citi customer. (I did get a 50% reduction in the annual fee after a number of conversations with the call centre).

They didn't enroll me in the rewards program. More unneeded conversations with the call centre.

When they did finally enroll me, they gave me the wrong amount of points. More unneeded conversations with the call centre.

When they worked out the issue and told me they would fix it, they didn't. More unneeded conversations with the call centre.

I inquired whether I could link my Diners card with my paypal account because it was a Discovery card. They said I could. After I linked the card and went to pay for something it came up in USD. I discussed this with a call centre manager (from my previous experience they are slightly less inept than the regular staff) he said this should not have happened and that any forex costs would be reimbursed.
They then tried to renege on the reimbursement (which was a quite a bit given Diners terrible forex rates). More unneeded conversations with the call centre.

It goes on and on.

Basically while very polite, the call centre and back office staff I have found to be beyond inept, and I seem to have had countless issues. I'll be going back to the Platinum Charge card once my 12 month hiatus is over and I can get the sign on bonus again. Although the annual fee is high, the amount of time I wasted on the phone to Diners, makes it a bargain.

 

[Hammando]

$1 spent on AMEX = 1.5Mr pts / $1 spent on Select = 2 Citibank Reward pts.

Citibank Reward pts transfer to KF at 1.5 Citibank Reward = 1 KF pt - eff earn 1.33 KF pt/$1
Citibank Reward pts transfer to AM at 2 Citibank Reward = 1 AM pt - eff earn 1 AM pt/$1

And of course AMEX earn 1.5MR pts/$1 - transfer 1:1 - eff earn 1.5 KF or AM/$1

Or have I got this wrong somewhere?

Sorry, I assumed a direct American Express (most earn 1 point per $1 on general spend), rather than a bank issued Amercian Express (1.5 points per $).

Perhaps that's it?

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Sorry, I assumed a direct American Express (most earn 1 point per $1 on general spend), rather than a bank issued Amercian Express (1.5 points per $).

Ah ok - after holding real Amex's for 30+ years I still have trouble even remembering that Amex have totally screwed over their customer base with that abortion of new pts earn structure known as 'product enhancement' - I still fall back mentally to 1.5:1 earn on Amex.

 

[legroom]

My head spins reading all these figures / conversions.

$1 spent on AMEX = 1.5Mr pts / $1 spent on Select = 2 Citibank Reward pts.

Citibank Reward pts transfer to KF at 1.5 Citibank Reward = 1 KF pt - eff earn 1.33 KF pt/$1
Citibank Reward pts transfer to AM at 2 Citibank Reward = 1 AM pt - eff earn 1 AM pt/$1

And of course AMEX earn 1.5MR pts/$1 - transfer 1:1 - eff earn 1.5 KF or AM/$1

Or have I got this wrong somewhere?

This all depends on how much (non-AMEX) spend you could put through the Select to gain an advantage over bank-issued AMEX CCs.

For < 5K per month, the benefits are marginal.

quokka77 good call on the Select. For me it is still a great card.

The Emirates MC although 1.5 points per $ has a point cap at 150,000 i think.

Might be worth while for you to get your Veda Access score. I think i paid $85 just to monitor it before you apply for any more credit cards. I know I found it useful after getting into the points game about 12 months ago and applying for a few different cards.

VedaScore | Your Credit and Identity

Also never ever ever get a Diners Card.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

For < 5K per month, the benefits are marginal.

so would 20-50K+/month make it worthwhile?

 

[legroom]

Buddy, that's a 120% yes !

so would 20-50+K/month make it worthwhile?

 

[Jack_OC]

Does anyone still have a list of the complimentary stay hotels? Citi have removed it from their website..

I think this benefit has in effect already been removed. I phoned up last week to try to book a hotel stay in Melbourne during Nov, and before I'd even said what date or where I wanted to stay, the guy was already saying "I'll have to check, as it really depends on whether there are any of the specific room types available to qualify for the complementary stay".

And lo and behold there were no such rooms available, in any of the three Melb hotels they use, on any of the dates I suggested (and no, we're not talking Cup weekend here). He did offer me a room at the Medina for $420 though (seriously!). I gave up in the end.

 

[Jack_OC]

Re: ATO (tax office) payments by credit card

As I’m not too far off my renewal date now, I decided to do an analysis of my spending and points earning potential with Select vs Black. I downloaded all of the transactions over the past 2 months into an Excel file, and then worked out how much points I would have got for each transaction with both options. As mentioned previously, my average spend with Select is in the region of $5-6k per month. I also assumed that I will transfer all points to KF either way, so we’re comparing like with like.

Two important caveats here:

• I spent about $3k overseas using Select during the past 2 months, which is higher than my average overseas spend.
• The bulk of my insurance premiums are paid annually in February, plus I prepaid my private health insurance until 31 Dec this year, so none of those transactions were included in the sample period.

Both of the above factors will exaggerate the benefit of Select versus Black over a full year. Also bear in mind that my Select transactions are self-selecting (no pun intended!) to earn more than could be earned with Black, as I already use my Black Amex wherever possible domestically (the only exceptions are my wife’s fault ). In other words, this isn’t a comparison of the overall earning potential of Black versus Select, it’s just a calculation to see how much incremental benefit I get from having Select in addition to Black.

I worked out that I would have earned almost 9,000 fewer KF points if I had used the Black combo instead of Select for all transactions in the past 2 months. So that would be a difference of about 54,000 KF points per year if that was representative. Is 54,000 points worth $700? (1.3 c/pt) Probably not, but it’s not a definite no either.

However, I would say my average overseas spend would be less than half what it was in the past two months, and that in itself would cut the advantage of Select by about 16,000 pts per year. And then insurance would add at least 5,000 pts to the Black column over a year, even if I could only use the MC. Overall, that would put Select less than 35,000 pts per year ahead (2c per KF pt with a $700 fee).

I think this confirms my thinking that large overseas spend is the only thing that can make this card worth it, if you’re only spending $5-6k per month. So I’m going to call up to cancel before my renewal date, and unless they offer me a very good deal I won’t be changing my mind.

One other tip for anyone thinking of cancelling – I just realised I can pre-pay my childcare fees for 2014, and save 10% in the process. That’s my single biggest non-Amex spend, but pre-paying with Select means I can still earn 1.33 pts/$ for the whole of 2014, without renewing my Select card!

 

[legroom]

Re: ATO (tax office) payments by credit card

Jack

Very, very useful and considered opinion.

I arrived at a slightly different conclusion as a result of a different spending profile.

The lesson is: no one size fits all.

You have to do what we are doing here to evaluate your own pattern of spending and consider for yourself if the $700 is justified.

I tried and keep trying but there is still a sizable chunk going through Select as they are AMEX incompatible.

So....., I am going to can it and apply one for my wife this year

As I’m not too far off my renewal date now, I decided to do an analysis of my spending using and points earning potential with Select vs Black. I downloaded all of the transactions over the past 2 months into an Excel file, and then worked out how much points I would have got for each transaction with both options. As mentioned previously, my average spend with Select is in the region of $5-6k per month. I also assumed that I will transfer all points to KF either way, so we’re comparing like with like.

Two important caveats here:

• I spent about $3k overseas using Select during the past 2 months, which is higher than my average overseas spend.
• The bulk of my insurance premiums are paid annually in February, plus I prepaid my private health insurance until 31 Dec this year, so none of those transactions were included in the sample period.

Both of the above factors will exaggerate the benefit of Select versus Black over a full year. Also bear in mind that my Select transactions are self-selecting (no pun intended!) to earn more than could be earned with Black, as I already use my Black Amex wherever possible domestically (the only exceptions are my wife’s fault ). In other words, this isn’t a comparison of the overall earning potential of Black versus Select, it’s just a calculation to see how much incremental benefit I get from having Select in addition to Black.

I worked out that I would have earned almost 9,000 fewer KF points if I had used the Black combo instead of Select for all transactions in the past 2 months. So that would be a difference of about 54,000 KF points per year if that was representative. Is 54,000 points worth $700? (1.3 c/pt) Probably not, but it’s not a definite no either.

However, I would say my average overseas spend would be less than half what it was in the past two months, and that in itself would cut the advantage of Select by about 16,000 pts per year. And then insurance would add at least 5,000 pts to the Black column over a year, even if I could only use the MC. Overall, that would put Select less than 35,000 pts per year ahead (2c per KF pt with a $700 fee).

I think this confirms my thinking that large overseas spend is the only thing that can make this card worth it, if you’re only spending $5-6k per month. So I’m going to call up to cancel before my renewal date, and unless they offer me a very good deal I won’t be changing my mind.

One other tip for anyone thinking of cancelling – I just realised I can pre-pay my childcare fees for 2014, and save 10% in the process. That’s my single biggest non-Amex spend, but pre-paying with Select means I can still earn 1.33 pts/$ for the whole of 2014, without renewing my Select card!

 

[Jack_OC]

Re: ATO (tax office) payments by credit card

Ps I just realised I posted the above in the wrong thread - it was meant for the thread discussing whether Select is worth $700 per year. Apologies - mods can you please move it to the other thread?

 

[Cruiser Elite]

OK guys so what is general consensus re Citi Rewards pts since the last 'enhancement'.

Are you guys now cleaning out balances on a monthly basis just in case?

Or are you 'warehousing' and not anticipating another sudden about face?

 

[DaveB]

Thanks Jack for your analysis. My gut feel has always been you would need to do over $100K on Citi to justify on top of you would be able to send to Black without incurring higher fees which is largely most personal spend. Otherwise, an EDR for MC/Visa only spend used for some local QF flights with a Black warehouse makes sense. A nice option not having to worry about which card doesn't earn points and use purely on minimising fees incurred.
Probably safe with enhancements for a while as they already lead the market in clamping down on marginal transactions like ATO and insurance. Other than moving some points to Velocity to get an extra 15% in November, I have warehoused for the past four months with all balances at a sound level.

 

[legroom]

DaveB

See my earlier post (#180) that will assist with your "gut feeling".

TBH, I feel uneasy leaving points with Citi.

I could be wrong but.... hell, I don't to be "enhanced" without notice which is the way Citi likes to operate.

Thanks Jack for your analysis. My gut feel has always been you would need to do over $100K on Citi to justify on top of you would be able to send to Black without incurring higher fees which is largely most personal spend. Otherwise, an EDR for MC/Visa only spend used for some local QF flights with a Black warehouse makes sense. A nice option not having to worry about which card doesn't earn points and use purely on minimising fees incurred.
Probably safe with enhancements for a while as they already lead the market in clamping down on marginal transactions like ATO and insurance. Other than moving some points to Velocity to get an extra 15% in November, I have warehoused for the past four months with all balances at a sound level.

 

[DaveB]

DaveB

See my earlier post (#180) that will assist with your "gut feeling".

TBH, I feel uneasy leaving points with Citi.

I could be wrong but.... hell, I don't to be "enhanced" without notice which is the way Citi likes to operate.

Thanks for that.
I so far have kept an 'easy come easy go' attitude to FF points which is weird for me given my engineering/business background.
I have a nice problem of accumulating more points than I can wisely spend so have often made use of the Citi Rewards which when last used close to 12 months ago burned points at the rate of $58k card spend spend per $1,000 ticket cost. Zero efficiency but it ensured we all flew together with a surprising by product of both daughters now VA gold.
I have not had to book any flights this year involving the four of us so my Citi Rewards points wastage has declined to the point where the Citi and four FF accounts are at uncomfortable levels.
Will have to see whether Citi Rewards can be readily used for other purposes like booking cruises and accommodation.

 

[legroom]

Folks

One more (soft) reason to quit Select is here (http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/showthread.php?p=935336#post935336): FREE for life Citi Signature

Sure, lower point earn but it's free - for life !

Your choice !

 

[cove]

Left with say $700,000 expenditure on Citi Select the fee of $700 would still be the bargain of the year.
At $200,000 or less then you could go free for life choice on Signature.