Classic Reward Schedule Change - Offered Alternatives

[kangarooflyer88]

Figure this doesn't need its own thread - a few weeks ago I requested 2*X award seats for some relatives on a short flight connecting to an a330 mel-per in U seats through to Perth. Request approved.

Good to see someone managed to get a request approved on the wide body morning service to PER. Although one must wonder whether QF9 would have been the better option on account of it providing an international standard of service (as it's continuing on to LHR), a better aircraft (787 versus A330). Most importantly, since it is a long haul international service, less likely to be cancelled (lest they cop EU261/UK261). Also since it's later in the day more options to catch it as a connecting flight versus a flight earlier in the day. Only downside is from my experience it may be difficult to secure over the phone.

But it was not meant to be. 24 hours out, they discovered that they had been moved to economy, likely due to cabin size with the aircraft downguaged.

And that's the best case scenario!

Two hours later they received a notification that their inbound was delayed and "Qantas is monitoring the connection". The initial X flight was to be 40 minutes delayed, meaning a 5 minute connection in MEL. Unlikely to work.

Shortly after, notifications arrived and they discovered they had been rebooked onto JQ, departing Melbourne 11pm and arriving to Perth just after midnight.

If they were monitoring the connection and realized it was going pear shaped one would hope that the airline would find a solution as close to the original as possible. Then again, you didn't purchase them a flight departing at a certain time, but rather a bundle of rights. Even then one would expect that purchasing a Qantas bundle of rights doesn't result in a JetStar bundle of rights when push comes to shove.

So after looking forward to the bed in the sky and the J lounge in Mel they had been moved to Jetstar and a post midnight departure, with a 4-5 hour stopover to boot.

If I was you (and by the way I am not you), I would have called QF and asked them to be rebooked on QF9 to PER. My understanding is that during IRROPs QF has way more latitude in terms of what to rebook you on. There doesn't need to be classic award availability but simply availability in the cabin you are booked.

I managed to call QF and get them on a different routing in economy - nothing was showing online but other flights were available for sale. There was an option available for sale in business but at this point the agent (think Fiji, got through straight away, call done in 11 minutes) wasn't aware this was originally a U ticket, and given it would be 737 anyway, the relatives felt the difference between economy wasn't worth the points.

When hanging up I asked the agent to please investigate and chase a refund of the points difference between the original and final booking. I was about to board a different flight so had to disconnect, but they said they'd look into it. I will monitor this over the next few weeks and see if any refunds come through. If not, in addition to the refund, would compensation be a reasonable request?

You should ask for points as a gesture of goodwill. First your parents did not get the cabin they were originally booked into. Second their travel was impacted by QF's own doing. Third, you'll likely have to chase QFF down for the difference in points. I'd wait a week or two to let the dust settle then send a thoughtful email to customer service.

In terms of how many points to request, I'll leave that up to the forum, but I would think at a minimum 10% of the redemption cost seems reasonable.

Due to them holding PC, I'll recommend them claiming ORC due to the downgrade as well.

The process for that is emailing the QFF address and then calling 2 weeks later if you don't hear back.

 

[Gold Member]

Why? It states economy.

At least with the FJ flight it states business.

I haven’t done the math on the earning tables, but the sheer distance travelled to DXB would be comparable if not more than the short distance via NAN. And just some common sense as @kangarooflyer88 mentioned, “Ahh but then you as the traveller might have leverage! Qantas will want to get this ticket that clearly breaks "cabotage" (whatever that is) off its hands. No doubt they'd gladly put you on whatever flight they operate in J to get you out of their hair than to face a potential penalty by the cabotage fairy (if those still exist)”

OP also didn't state which FFP for earn so it would vary accordingly.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I haven’t done the math on the earning tables, but the sheer distance travelled to DXB would be comparable if not more than the short distance via NAN.

OP also didn't state which FFP for earn so it would vary accordingly.

Presumably they would earn nothing with QFF for either the FJ or EK flights since status credits are only earned on classic flight awards if the service is operated by Qantas as a points club member. Now is it possible that the rebooked ticket is improperly coded such that you could earn frequent flyer miles and credits on certain programs? That's a possibility. As a datapoint there, I used Aeroplan points to book LAX > ICN flying Eva Air business. Eva Air cancelled and I was rebooked onto Air Canada business which in turn was cancelled and Aeroplan threw up their hands and let me select a new flight online, which I ended up selecting Asiana as it was nonstop and it was on a Airbus A380 (my first). I updated the frequent flyer shortly thereafter to United and it ended up crediting as a C class fare earning me 7,493 United miles and 1000 PQP towards United status. But that is generally the rare exception not the rule.

-RooFlyer88

 

[exceladdict]

Good to see someone managed to get a request approved on the wide body morning service to PER. Although one must wonder whether QF9 would have been the better option on account of it providing an international standard of service (as it's continuing on to LHR), a better aircraft (787 versus A330). Most importantly, since it is a long haul international service, less likely to be cancelled (lest they cop EU261/UK261). Also since it's later in the day more options to catch it as a connecting flight versus a flight earlier in the day. Only downside is from my experience it may be difficult to secure over the phone.

In this case the 7pm was the best connection to PER, from the choices of earlier connections into MEL. Unfortunately they didn't arrive into Mel early enough for qf9. I'm quite surprised for the swap so close to departure, I didn't track the planes but assumed it was a technical swap, given other recent 330 tech issues.

And that's the best case scenario!

You're right actually - there was no other way to get to PER that evening on the QF group so the JQ replacement is better than none. "back in the day" QF used to run both a 7pm-ish and an 830pm-ish to PER (which is usually target) with at least one being a widebody. it seems these days to often only have one when I've been looking recently, and often a 737. Strange because all of my PER <> east coast flights have been absolutely chockers lately, but am sure Qantas would be running it if they could make money off it.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Thanks, MELso, aha, last time I read, they (FJ) only had 2 A350s, was on wiki.
Good to know they have got more of the A350s now, givess people a chance to fly it cheaper a bit than the A350 SQ to SIN.
Ta for the info.

 

[encryptededdy]

cabotage is a legal fiction

How about when Asiana was fined for carrying customers from Guam to Mainland US via. Seoul? https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/DOT-fines-Asiana-for-violating-cabotage-laws

Admittedly it doesn't happen often, but it definitely does happen.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

How about when Asiana was fined for carrying customers from Guam to Mainland US via. Seoul? https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/DOT-fines-Asiana-for-violating-cabotage-laws

Well this was called out because Asiana was blatantly flaunting the laws including advertising Guam to mainland US via Seoul. Indeed in the article, not even the DoT could explain the precise circumstances that would trigger this cabotage fiction.

For instance, my seatmate back to SYD from LAX flew into California that morning to attend a meeting then flew back at night. Could that not be considered cabotage?

Admittedly it doesn't happen often, but it definitely does happen.

Airlines rarely get busted for this alleged illegal behaviour because again it’s a legal fiction. How can you point to any connecting itinerary and say, that’s cabotage? Without interviewing the traveller and understanding their context you frankly cannot say if an itinerary is cabotage. Only when an airline advertises it does some bright red line get crossed

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well this was called out because Asiana was blatantly flaunting the laws including advertising Guam to mainland US via Seoul. Indeed in the article, not even the DoT could explain the precise circumstances that would trigger this cabotage fiction.

For instance, my seatmate back to SYD from LAX flew into California that morning to attend a meeting then flew back at night. Could that not be considered cabotage?

Airlines rarely get busted for this alleged illegal behaviour because again it’s a legal fiction. How can you point to any connecting itinerary and say, that’s cabotage? Without interviewing the traveller and understanding their context you frankly cannot say if an itinerary is cabotage. Only when an airline advertises it does some bright red line get crossed

Asiana is not the only example. EVA got caught, and others as well.

Cabotage is not a legal function, as these and other cases show. Try booking Air canada between two US cities via Canada and you get this message:

It is not possible to book a flight segment between two cities in the same country, unless that country is Canada.​

Please contact Air Canada Reservations for assistance with this type of booking.​

(Air canada’s golding, not mine.)

Try using multi city tool where both flights are Air Canada and you get a booking error.

You can come up with all the scenarios you like, but it doesn’t matter what the reason is… for example if you are going to meet someone in another city. You cannot generally use a foreign airline to fly between two cities in one country (EU a major exception obviously.)

Enforcement is by the airlines themselves to avoid fines, and by other airlines looking to protect their revenue.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Asiana is not the only example. EVA got caught, and others as well.

Cabotage is not a legal function, as these and other cases show. Try booking Air canada between two US cities via Canada and you get this message:

It is not possible to book a flight segment between two cities in the same country, unless that country is Canada.​

Please contact Air Canada Reservations for assistance with this type of booking.​

(Air canada’s golding, not mine.)

That ain't what I'm getting, again pointing out that cabotage is a myth:

You can come up with all the scenarios you like, but it doesn’t matter what the reason is… for example if you are going to meet someone in another city. You cannot generally use a foreign airline to fly between two cities in one country (EU a major exception obviously.)

If that was the case then international travel would be impossible. I mean you could argue that an open-jaw flying United from Sydney to San Francisco then San Francisco to Melbourne represents cabotage. People fly these types of itineraries all the time be it a business trip or going on a holiday. Again, it's up for interpretation and debate. There are no hard and fast rules for what constitutes cabotage.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That ain't what I'm getting, again pointing out that cabotage is a myth:
View attachment 353561

If that was the case then international travel would be impossible. I mean you could argue that an open-jaw flying United from Sydney to San Francisco then San Francisco to Melbourne represents cabotage. People fly these types of itineraries all the time be it a business trip or going on a holiday. Again, it's up for interpretation and debate. There are no hard and fast rules for what constitutes cabotage.

Exactly right. SYD-SFO-MEL could be cabotage depending on the time spent in SFO.

You may be able to purchase the DEN-YYZ-LAX, but it doesn’t mean you’ll be able to fly, as in get past checkin at the airport.

Air Canada does offer combinations on AC/UA for shorter hops, specifically for this reason, to not breach cabotage.

If you don’t believe cabotage exists, how do you explain UA being prevented from carry pax MEL-SYD in the days when MEL was a tag flight? UA was caught out carrying international connecting pax from SYD. And the OZ, KE, BR examples?

Sure, pax might get away with it, airlines might not pick it up. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As all the examples show.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Exactly right. SYD-SFO-MEL could be cabotage depending on the time spent in SFO.

You may be able to purchase the DEN-YYZ-LAX, but it doesn’t mean you’ll be able to fly, as in get past checkin at the airport.

Air Canada does offer combinations on AC/UA for shorter hops, specifically for this reason, to not breach cabotage.

Yes the onus may very well be on the passenger to prove that they are not using that itinerary as "cabotage". But once they provide sufficient evidence of a genuine purpose for taking that routing then it's no longer a concern, is it?

And to give you a concrete example to consider, suppose someone was to fly SYD to LAX on United then return LAX to MEL 2 weeks later would that be considered cabotage by the agent? After all they are technically using a foreign airline to move between SYD to MEL via a return ticket? I think most people on this forum would laugh at such a proposition. So it would seem that length of time you are spending in the foreign destination is the clear factor on the side of the passenger. But as I've said before, short turns can and do happen for legitimate reasons.

If you don’t believe cabotage exists, how do you explain UA being prevented from carry pax MEL-SYD in the days when MEL was a tag flight? UA was caught out carrying international connecting pax from SYD. And the OZ, KE, BR examples?

Well I think flying a foreign airline directly between two cities in a country they don't operate without authorization of the authorities in that country is a bright line example of cabotage. But something where you connect via another country is less clear. Again, an argument could be made that you needed to attend a meeting in the foreign country and whilst unusual it's not illegal to my knowledge to do a same day turn to a foreign country. I mean who amongst us haven't pulled a stunt like that be it for earning frequent flyer status or having an important meeting they need to attend.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes the onus may very well be on the passenger to prove that they are not using that itinerary as "cabotage". But once they provide sufficient evidence of a genuine purpose for taking that routing then it's no longer a concern, is it?

And to give you a concrete example to consider, suppose someone was to fly SYD to LAX on United then return LAX to MEL 2 weeks later would that be considered cabotage by the agent? After all they are technically using a foreign airline to move between SYD to MEL via a return ticket? I think most people on this forum would laugh at such a proposition. So it would seem that length of time you are spending in the foreign destination is the clear factor on the side of the passenger. But as I've said before, short turns can and do happen for legitimate reasons.

Well I think flying a foreign airline directly between two cities in a country they don't operate without authorization of the authorities in that country is a bright line example of cabotage. But something where you connect via another country is less clear. Again, an argument could be made that you needed to attend a meeting in the foreign country and whilst unusual it's not illegal to my knowledge to do a same day turn to a foreign country. I mean who amongst us haven't pulled a stunt like that be it for earning frequent flyer status or having an important meeting they need to attend.

That’s right, airlines cannot provide carriage between two cities in the same country. If you have a two day break, carriage is not between two cities, it is a return, open jawed.

The intent of the passenger is a bit of a red herring. It’s the airline’s responsibility to make sure it is not carrying a passenger in breach of cabotage rules. The two day beak means the destination of travel is the same country. We see this often with the definition of stopovers and transits. Once you have a stopover, your travel is considered terminated at the stopover city.

 

[serfty]

Cabotage can also be selling a direct routing wholly within another country.

Such segements can be sold as part of an international itinerary. Dont't have to be same day or directly connecting.

Back in the days of QF107/QF10late, Qantas used to so sell the LAX/JFK segments.

In the end they would only sell them as a direct transit to/from their own metal as there were continual unfounded complaints from other US airlines about cabotage. The costs of dealing with these complaints made such selling unprofitable.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

That’s right, airlines cannot provide carriage between two cities in the same country. If you have a two day break, carriage is not between two cities, it is a return, open jawed.

This doesn't seem to be the law, because if it were there would be many legitimate itineraries that would not be allowed because it would be considered cabotage. For instance someone travelling from Sydney to San Francisco for a meeting then heading afterwards to Melbourne to attend another meeting.Whilst this may not be common in Australia it is very common in North America with the substantial amount of cross-border business going on and the relative ease of getting between those two countries by air.

The intent of the passenger is a bit of a red herring.

Passenger intent has a lot to do it. There is a huge difference with me flying United from Toronto to Vancouver to save $300 CAD on airfare instead of flying Air Canada versus me having a business meeting in Denver then flying on to Vancouver for another business meeting. The former is using the free market to get the best airfare whereas the latter is a legitimate itinerary someone could book and one which might I add you cannot really book without breaking these mythical 'rules'

Cabotage can also be selling a direct routing wholly within another country.

That's more clear cut I would argue.

Such segements can be sold as part of an international itinerary. Dont't have to be same day or directly connecting.

Back in the days of QF107/QF10late, Qantas used to so sell the LAX/JFK segments.

In the end they would only sell them as a direct transit to/from their own metal as there were continual unfounded complaints from other US airlines about cabotage. The costs of dealing with these complaints made such selling unprofitable.

The US is distinct since there is no distinction between international and domestic flights at airports. Anyone arriving in the US must clear immigration and customs and re-clear security, even if they are on an I-I itinerary. International flights and domestic flights depart from the same terminals and there is no emmigration lane as is the case in much of the rest of the world. Indeed when I flew to SYD the first time, the gate for my flight to SYD at LAX was right beside the gate of another flight heading to JFK and I could walk freely between them. Contrast that with say SYD where you would be directed back to the international departures lounge after clearing security. In such instances there is a very real risk of cabotage since someone could hop on a plane on LAX for JFK (or vice versa) and when they arrive simply exit the airport which is something you cannot do in Australia.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Passenger intent has a lot to do it.

The fine for breaching cabotage is against the airline. Not the passenger.

Therefore the intent of the passenger is not relevant.

Foreign airlines can’t sell tickets to travel between two cities in the same country. It doesn’t matter if the passenger is in transit, or getting off the plane for a business meeting.

There is nothing to stop the passenger going to another country for a business meeting, just it should be on two different airlines, which is exactly what air canada does for US-CA-US tickets… one way Air canada and the other in United. Really simple to keep in the right side of cabotage.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

There is nothing to stop the passenger going to another country for a business meeting, just it should be on two different airlines, which is exactly what air canada does for US-CA-US tickets… one way Air canada and the other in United. Really simple to keep in the right side of cabotage.

Except in the example I showed the entire itinerary was on AC metal.