Could we form a Lobby Group?

[Deleted member]

Once I’m LTG, I too will vote with my feet.

 

[JohnK]

Why not? Plenty business flyers on AFF and other travel groups sharing more trivial things. If QF regularly downgrade or offload pax due to overbookings (regardless of who paid for the ticket) I’m sure we would read much more about it on social media.

I think AFF is only a small percentage of travellers and is mainly made up of frequent flyers.

Also assuming a business traveller was downgraded on a business paid ticket and they got some sort of compensation they may not want to complain.

 

[harvyk]

I think AFF is only a small percentage of travellers and is mainly made up of frequent flyers.

We might only be a small percentage of travelers, however we're a sizable enough group that should we as a group decide to abandon an airline then that airline will be hurting.

Of course the question is could you honestly see one of the QF / VA fanboi's abandoning their favorite airline to fly the competition?
A lobby group only really has power if they are in a position to hurt if their demands are not met, and we are no where near organised enough for that.

 

[marki]

We might only be a small percentage of travelers, however we're a sizable enough group that should we as a group decide to abandon an airline then that airline will be hurting.

Of course the question is could you honestly see one of the QF / VA fanboi's abandoning their favorite airline to fly the competition?
A lobby group only really has power if they are in a position to hurt if their demands are not met, and we are no where near organised enough for that.

Still better to try and fail only like the Sphinx to rise again become even stronger.

 

[Limewood]

Id like to see us lobby for more J award seats ex OZ and fees halved, pipe dreams of course.

 

[Deleted member]

Still better to try and fail only like the Sphinx to rise again become even stronger.

Sphinx? or Phoenix?

 

[drron]

Unfortunately for the lobby group idea many of us have already left QF.I did so in 2007 when I realised it was easier to get to LTP on AA than LTG on QF.Proven when I made LTP at least 6 years ago and mrsdrron LTG only earlier this year.
But this no longer holds true.

 

[harvyk]

Still better to try and fail only like the Sphinx to rise again become even stronger.

Well if we're going to do this, what exactly do we want?
We need some pretty exact demands, but which take into account QF's / VA's financial positions (free F flights for life just ain't going to happen). We'd also need to know how many of those things we are willing to give away and / or how we can frame them in a positive light for the airlines.

What is our stick?
We need something we can tangibly take away from airlines, keeping in mind many here are rusted on QF / VA flyers. Without the stick they are never going to listen to us in the first place.

What is our carrot?
We also need something to offer the airline in return if they do follow through with this, ultimately they would want to see additional BIS / more money, how would we provide that for them? This is the thing which makes them decide that it's a good idea.

Remember that the best lobbying will attempt to get a win-win scenario happening.

Finally, given we're in a two horse race here in AU, it'll be a bit more of a battle than elsewhere in the world. "We know you have your choice of airlines" doesn't quite fly here.

 

[eastwest101]

I think the stick will be a class action lawsuit, unless the involuntary downgrade compensation rules are changed would be the stick to use. Pick the most egregious example of and pursue all the way as a class action.


Here's the downgrade compensation argument as it currently runs according to the airlines – but just transpose the logic to another product and price and see if this argument would fly with the ACCC or any state consumer law.





I have a car yard selling two models of car, a Toyota Corolla at $20K drive away and a Lexus LS400 at $200K.

Customer A walks into my yard and wants to buy a Lexus LS400, I make them put a 100% deposit of $200K for this car and promise to deliver in a few weeks. Two weeks later another customer B comes in and really really wants a Lexus badly, and I sell them the just delivered Lexus for $250K. This is my last Lexus from my supplier.... I only have Corollas left on the lot.

When customer A comes in a few weeks later I apologize profusely that I don't actually have a Lexus for them to take delivery of, but, I will sell them a Corolla instead. Customer A says – OK that's fine because I know a Corolla costs only $20K and it will get me there and I can keep the other $180K that I have already paid.

This is where I come in as the dealer principal and say to customer A that, co-incidently, we have just repriced the Toyota Corolla to $150K now, as its our only product in stock, and at the moment , supply and demand, yada yada yada quote unfair terms and conditions in contract and say to customer A that given the new adjusted price of a Toyota Corolla is now $150K and the customer has already paid $200K then a refund of only $50K is the compensation due to customer A.!

My car yard has now sold one Lexus that usually retails around $200K for $250K to customer B and I have “sold” a Corolla that's worth $20K for $150K to customer A – how good a business model is this?




Try doing that in a car yard and see how the consumer law would view that behaviour if customer A took it to a court! Do the words truth in advertising, unfair contract terms, failure to deliver advertised product, misleading and deceptive conduct and switch and bait pricing ring any bells with anyone?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A lobby group only really has power if they are in a position to hurt if their demands are not met, and we are no where near organised enough for that.

Well if we're going to do this, what exactly do we want?
We need some pretty exact demands, but which take into account QF's / VA's financial positions (free F flights for life just ain't going to happen). We'd also need to know how many of those things we are willing to give away and / or how we can frame them in a positive light for the airlines.

What is our stick?
We need something we can tangibly take away from airlines, keeping in mind many here are rusted on QF / VA flyers. Without the stick they are never going to listen to us in the first place.

What is our carrot?
We also need something to offer the airline in return if they do follow through with this, ultimately they would want to see additional BIS / more money, how would we provide that for them? This is the thing which makes them decide that it's a good idea.

Remember that the best lobbying will attempt to get a win-win scenario happening.

Finally, given we're in a two horse race here in AU, it'll be a bit more of a battle than elsewhere in the world. "We know you have your choice of airlines" doesn't quite fly here.

You'd by-pass the airline outright and lobby on the political front. It's likely, if the issue was properly raised, that the majority of Australians would support laws that made airline travel fairer. Laws that ended inconvenience caused by delays and cancellations. That didn't leave passengers stranded. That paid fair compensation in the event of a downgrade. That provided a duty of care in the event of delays and cancellations.

If there were votes in this then it would be a political decision and there's no 'stick' or 'carrot' needed - at least as far as the airlines are concerned. No airline is going to voluntarily subscribe to an EU261 regime, no matter what the 'stick' passengers think they may have.

There would still be a 'win-win' however, just it would be a 'win' for the political party and a 'win' for the public. And a few big losers (the airlines).

The effective lobbying would come from groups like AFF that could rebut any pathetic attempts by the airlines to dispute the need for Eu261. It would a group that could provide data. That could show the European experience hasn't led to the end of aviation as we know it, or a dramatic increase in fares that Aussie airlines would likely argue. And that there wouldn't be mass unemployment of crew and huge detriment to the economy.

No doubt some politicians like their exclusive lounges. But they like being in power even more.

 

[harvyk]

You'd by-pass the airline outright and lobby on the political front. It's likely, if the issue was properly raised, that the majority of Australians would support laws that made airline travel fairer. Laws that ended inconvenience caused by delays and cancellations. That didn't leave passengers stranded. That paid fair compensation in the event of a downgrade. That provided a duty of care in the event of delays and cancellations.

If there were votes in this then it would be a political decision and there's no 'stick' or 'carrot' needed - at least as far as the airlines are concerned. No airline is going to voluntarily subscribe to an EU261 regime, no matter what the 'stick' passengers think they may have.

There would still be a 'win-win' however, just it would be a 'win' for the political party and a 'win' for the public. And a few big losers (the airlines).

The effective lobbying would come from groups like AFF that could rebut any pathetic attempts by the airlines to dispute the need for Eu261. It would a group that could provide data. That could show the European experience hasn't led to the end of aviation as we know it, or a dramatic increase in fares that Aussie airlines would likely argue. And that there wouldn't be mass unemployment of crew and huge detriment to the economy.

No doubt some politicians like their exclusive lounges. But they like being in power even more.

I think it would be really difficult to directly lobby Aussie politicians on these issues. Remember that the stereotypical "aussie battler" won't care that some "w@nker" (their words' not mine) had to sit in Economy instead of Business. They'll care even less if that person just so happens to be their boss.

Whilst some of the budget airlines are certainly no picnic, many of those deficiencies are around delays which most people and especially the annual trip to Bali crowd are unlikely to face on a regular basis. Even then that annoyance is probably long forgotten by the time the person gets to the ballot box.

The reason why other lobby groups (such as the gun lobby in the us) work so well is they are either an issue which people are passionate about (aka the pro / anti gun brigade) and thus will change their vote (or more importantly get off their behind and vote), or it's an issue relatively few people care about (and none are likely to change their votes over it), but it's backed by some people who have the ability to make political donations. Unfortunately we offer neither of those things.

Just thinking about it, if we were after an EU261 style system, our best bet would be something along the lines of a petition. If we could get some big names who are willing to put their name down on such a thing (and are potentially willing to risk their Chairman's lounge membership in doing so), then that is probably going to be far more effective. For such a petition to be truly effective it would need to frame it around consumer rights rather than complaints around involuntary downgrades. Some guidelines are available here

House of Representatives Petitions – Parliament of Australia

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think it would be really difficult to directly lobby Aussie politicians on these issues. Remember that the stereotypical "aussie battler" won't care that some "w@nker" (their words' not mine) had to sit in Economy instead of Business. They'll care even less if that person just so happens to be their boss.

I don't underestimate the Australian public. It's all down to how you sell it. I'd say most passengers have experienced a delay. Most would have found out that they can't simply change carriers at the last minute because of the excessive walk-up fares.

The European public is on board with their compensation scheme. No reason for Aussies to be any different. We've come around to consumer protection law here, an EU261 would simply be an extension of that. (And in fact i can't see a good reason why consumer laws shouldn't apply to air travel!)

 

[Jleno]

since we're royal commissioning everything at the moment...

 

[eastwest101]

since we're royal commissioning everything at the moment...

Thats a fair comment, but also a damning indictment of our political system and the weak regulators that we do have that it takes a big noisy expensive royal commission into an industry to actually focus on the failings of said industry.

Most of the stuff we have heard about banking, insurance, superannuation are in sectors that already have regulators, codes of conduct and are supposed to be covered by the laws of the land. I expect the new Royal Commission into the aged care industry will certainly provide more "horror stories" and I woudn't be surprised if the Health Industry was the next industry in line for a Royal Comission after that.

The thing all these Royal Commisions have in common is the root cause of "short termism" or misalignment of management KPIs to what the public expect.

 

[OATEK]

Lobbying is only practical if you have someone with expertise/credibility to lead it, and is representing a voter block of significance to politicians. I have been in a room with such a lobbyist when he picked up the phone and got through to a PM asking for support for an issue, and got just that (it was in a good cause to do with environmental protection).

For now I think the best bet is the ACCC and wonder if anyone here has put forward submissions re: airlines, overbooking and lousy compensation?

 

[harvyk]

Lobbying is only practical if you have someone with expertise/credibility to lead it, and is representing a voter block of significance to politicians. I have been in a room with such a lobbyist when he picked up the phone and got through to a PM asking for support for an issue, and got just that (it was in a good cause to do with environmental protection).

For now I think the best bet is the ACCC and wonder if anyone here has put forward submissions re: airlines, overbooking and lousy compensation?

Unlikely to get anything via the ACCC. They tend to go after systemic issues, such as the excluding tax pricing that VA (DJ) did when they first started than the handling of one off or abnormal situations.