crazy LAX-SYD on QF First $1200!!!!

[straitman]

18 months ago, booked some YUP fares with AA and within 10 minutes of realising I had put the surname and christian names back to front, contacted the Australian AA number (which went through to India), but they would not change it unless I paid the $115 re issue fee. had no choice, but learned a good lesson from it.

This is a very good example of the one way traffic that Mal was talking about earlier and that Dave Noble was defending.

Is it reasonable :?: Oh course not :!:

 

[Dave Noble]

This is a very good example of the one way traffic that Mal was talking about earlier and that Dave Noble was defending.

I am not defending cases of not allowing mistakes to be fixed if contacted directly after making the mistake and seeing it; my 2 1st hand knowledges of this ( one being one I did and another a friend did ) was that contacting the airline within 10 minutes or so of making the booking , the airline *did* make the change without charging

I also cannot defend the idea of exploiting mistakes ( such as buying tickets just because the airline screwed up in pricing ) and then whining about how unfair it is when they decline to honour them

I have seen airlines waive charges when a mistake occurs and is promptly told about it so it isn't a one way street ime

Im sure I must be then the only person for whom an airline has made an exception to fees when something untoward happens

Dave

 

[Danger]

Yesterday I booked SIN-LHR-CDG, ZRH-LHR-SIN on the QF SIN website. At the pricing page it showed SGD1638 and listed it as a super saver fare. However, I'd previously looked at this route several times over the previous couple of days and at those times that fare was listed in the sale category. I proceded with the booking and printed the confirmation that showed it was a super saver fare and stated 'flight upgrades are eligible on this fare'.

I then logged into my QFF account where it showed the booking class on all flights as N - non-upgradeable. I immediately phoned Qantas in Australia who were baffled. After 25 minutes on hold they couldn't give me an answer and said they'd phone back. They did and said they'd done a booking of their own which gave the same information as I'd got. They said they'd permit an upgrade request on this ticket because, much to their dismay, I'd been given the wrong information.

So, while the cost to Qantas here is a fraction of what it is in the AA example, they still did honour it. I don't consider myself to have taken advantage of QF for this 'error'.

 

[Dave Noble]

So, while the cost to Qantas here is a fraction of what it is in the AA example, they still did honour it. I don't consider myself to have taken advantage of QF for this 'error'.

These are 2 quite different things imo

This wasn't an error so glaringly obvious to be an error as the former. If you had been looking and it had said that it was in 1st class, but turned out to be in economy, dlo u think it would have been the sam result

Also, did you post to fora saying Quick, get in fast, QF have screwed up and you can get upgrades on the cheap creating a feeding frenzy?

Dave

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I have once in the past made a mistake with an airline (BA) and ended up booking the wrong dates ; I realised a short while after paying that there was a mistake and within an hour of having purchased phoned the airline expecting to have to pay change fees etc to change the booking to what I needed. The BA agent was able to get the fee waived given how soon after booking I contacted them

That may not be everyone's experience in that sort of situation and I did expect to be charged cos it was all my own fault



Dave

Like Dave I have had various airlines come good over my mistakes over the years (decades). From memory QF. Jetstar and I think Virgin and admitedly all domestic flights.

Mainly having made on-line bookings with the wrong date/time and then realising afterwards.

Maybe it is just my phone manner, but in each case they waived the fee

One or two gave me a 'naugthy boy" lecture with a caution to not do it again.

In one case with QF just after e-tickets came in, I rocked up to check-in to not see my flight at all on the Departure Board. On asking over the counter it was explained to my horror that it had already departed. I had misread my e-ticket having taken the arrival time for the departure time!!!! It may have been my aghast look...but they just put me on the next flight at no cost.

 

[samh004]

I’d have to agree with Dave here, as much as I would have liked to have booked the fare had I got the chance.

It was clearly a mistake, and you should be thankful AA is going to compensate you with a refund and a $200 voucher, or a discount off an appropriate fare/downgrade to Economy.

At a time when most airlines (not QF, but they’ve not done anything wrong here) are still trying to get back to profitability, routing them for over $400,000 seems like the final blow before you expect them to go bankrupt.

 

[anat0l]

At a time when most airlines (not QF, but they’ve not done anything wrong here) are still trying to get back to profitability, routing them for over $400,000 seems like the final blow before you expect them to go bankrupt.

I think that is a moot argument.

I think it is plainly clear that most people - who like to call themselves "valued customers" - do not give a **** about the profitability or lack thereof of the company which they are getting goods and/or services for. They do not care if the product you are selling them will result in a loss of $100,000 or whatever - they want it...and they'd still like a further discount!

I did not make the aforementioned emphasis for no light reason...

Mind you, if AA did honour this fare and suppose they did go bankrupt, those said customers would still be expecting to get their first class seats, whether that be by bullying another company or the relevant regulatory channels / government.

 

[Mal]

I have seen airlines waive charges when a mistake occurs and is promptly told about it so it isn't a one way street ime

Indeed. It can happen. But it does depend on the airline, the phone reps mood and the policies in place.

Eg booking my Amex redemption flight for a friend through Amex travel - they spelt the name wrong, issued the ticket and was able to correct it without any dramas as it was within a short time frame of when it was originally done.

But with the number of stories about inflexibility from airlines when people do typos in someone's name, or book the wrong flight etc - I really don't think that everything is equal.

 

[medhead]

At a time when most airlines (not QF, but they’ve not done anything wrong here) are still trying to get back to profitability, routing them for over $400,000 seems like the final blow before you expect them to go bankrupt.

Come off it, $400,000 is not going to send them broke. They would just need to following the example of Continenal and get the CEO to waive his pay for a year.

I know - I was simply illustrating three different scenarios, and only the third is what is actually in the terms.

Yeah, sorry I did get that. I also though of another point about the "or" wording. That would mean that if you had an "open" segment on a ticket (say xONE) then with the "or" they could charge a new price for all segments on the ticket.

Fair point - I have to qualify all this by stating that I have no idea what precisely is meant by an 'Open' ticket - is it one that literally has no details other than the fare basis on it and no selected flights?

I'm not exactly sure either, that was the term used in the conditions. But I assume it is probably a case where the ruote is decided but the date and flight isn't. Probalby what you describe with CX.

Anyway, medhead, I always enjoy these chats.

Thanks, it is always valuable for me because a big bit of my job involves interpreting legislation, writing rules and related things. So discussion interpretations is a great learning experience for me.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Any "good" fare from an airline can be retracted with little punishment to them. Any "mistake" by a customer, the customer has to wear any loss.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out. Seeing most people who took up the fare are Americans, they will be using the legal system to the full extent I think...

Good one MAL.
+1 on this point. Seems to be a "one way" street sometimes for the airlines.

I remember about 10 months ago QF was calling people and asking if they would like to upgrade with points, on a non-upgradable fare?!? (N/O class ticket). That's one point were l thought QF had stepped over the line.

But, in all fairness to AA, if you had purchased a whY, SYD-LAX fare and after paying for it, realized it was 10k, would you expect a refund? Yes you would!

 

[Mal]

Come off it, $400,000 is not going to send them broke. They would just need to following the example of Continenal and get the CEO to waive his pay for a year.

I don't think the potential loss is $US400K. I see it as much higher - perhaps $US1Mill, perhaps even $US2Mill.

No official figures have been published about how many fares were taken up, but I would estimate it's in the hundreds at least, perhaps as high as a thousand.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

If the full "F" fare is something like 19k each way, or 38k return and people picked them up for $1250 return, that's a loss of $36750 on a return ticket.

Lets say 25 booked.
$36750 x 25 = $441,000.00

Estimate only people. I don't know how many people got onto it.

As others have said, in reality, it might only cost QF sub $10k and the rest is just icing.
Someone on FT threw the figure of $25 million around, l personally think that's a little bit high

 

[Dave Noble]

Estimate only people. I don't know how many people got onto it.

As others have said, in reality, it might only cost QF sub $10k and the rest is just icing.
Someone on FT threw the figure of $25 million around, l personally think that's a little bit high

What it costs QF is nothing I would have thought; QF would be laughing all the way to the bank since they should have an agreed price that they will get for transporting the AA passengers; that AA has only realised a small percentage of that cost wouldn't worry QF; just enjoy the sudden surge in 1st class sales

If it was AA mistake on AA, there might be less incentive for AA to cancel tickets, but when it is for travel on another airline, there could be real money cost to them rather than loss of some systemwide upgrade availability

Dave

 

[medhead]

What it costs QF is nothing I would have thought; QF would be laughing all the way to the bank since they should have an agreed price that they will get for transporting the AA passengers; that AA has only realised a small percentage of that cost wouldn't worry QF; just enjoy the sudden surge in 1st class sales

Exactly, AA and QF would have an agreed price and there is no way it'll be anywhere $35K return, IMO. I tried getting one of these fares, way to late and JFK-SYD came out at $27K return. Bearing in mind I have absolutely no idea about how they price airfares, I won't even try to guess what the agreed price is, but the real cost to AA of honouring the fare is related to the cost of operating flights not the fare or even the profit made on selling the seat. i.e. if they recover they costs, but don't make a profit then they shouldn't go bust.

I will also point out that whenever the payment is made to QF, QF are also going to have to pay AA for using AA services. So the immediate cash outlay will only be the difference between what QF owes AA and what AA owes QF.

 

[Dave Noble]

Exactly, AA and QF would have an agreed price and there is no way it'll be anywhere $35K return, IMO. I tried getting one of these fares, way to late and JFK-SYD came out at $27K return. Bearing in mind I have absolutely no idea about how they price airfares, I won't even try to guess what the agreed price is, but the real cost to AA of honouring the fare is related to the cost of operating flights not the fare or even the profit made on selling the seat. i.e. if they recover they costs, but don't make a profit then they shouldn't go bust.

I will also point out that whenever the payment is made to QF, QF are also going to have to pay AA for using AA services. So the immediate cash outlay will only be the difference between what QF owes AA and what AA owes QF.

I expect that the cost to AA per ticket will be fairly significant, not just a few dollars. Even if QF only gets 50% , then AA is out $11,000 per ticket. If it was 1 ticket or 2, then eating it seems feasible, but when people start posting "time to screw AA over" and cause high sales to occur, would think that their approach would be different

So far, the one post indicating having been contacted by AA seems to have been given $200 with an option to travel in economy, get a 36% discount on 1st class and pay difference or get a 50% discount on business class and pay the difference

Easy $200 for those that got it

Dave

 

[Oneworldplus2]

I will also point out that whenever the payment is made to QF, QF are also going to have to pay AA for using AA services. So the immediate cash outlay will only be the difference between what QF owes AA and what AA owes QF.

Agreed.
AA would have to fork over money to QF if they were going to honor these fares, but at the same time AA would also be back charging QF for services rendered.
Still, $1200 return LAX-SYD, F Class was a little bit of a pie in the sky. Now people are getting all upset that AA isn't going to honor their end of the contract.
Good example of, "if it's took good to be true"...

 

[straitman]

I am not defending cases of not allowing mistakes to be fixed if contacted directly after making the mistake and seeing it; my 2 1st hand knowledges of this ( one being one I did and another a friend did ) was that contacting the airline within 10 minutes or so of making the booking , the airline *did* make the change without charging

Dave,

All I am trying to suggest here is look at the big picture.

Mal gave an example of where they (the airline) didn't do the right thing. You have given examples of where they have done the right thing. In other words sometimes it is a two way street and sometimes not. Having said that the situation is currently set up so that only the airlines have that choice. Is that reasonable and if so how can it be justified :?:

I also cannot defend the idea of exploiting mistakes ( such as buying tickets just because the airline screwed up in pricing ) and then whining about how unfair it is when they decline to honour them

I do not believe anybody is defending the exploitation though from you comments I must assume that if any store ever undercharged you that you would be 100% honest and pay the extra. If that is so I admire your morals but have to say that you are the .0000000001% that do so.

I have seen airlines waive charges when a mistake occurs and is promptly told about it so it isn't a one way street ime

... and we have seen here examples of when they do not.

Im sure I must be then the only person for whom an airline has made an exception to fees when something untoward happens

Dave

No but as pointed out they do not always do so and that is where they are morally wrong :!:


Remember the saying:
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters.
If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."
--Alan Simpson

 

[auriga]

Doesn't affect me this time, but as noted, in the past, there has been mistake fares which were honoured, so one can't really be blamed for "wishful thinking"!

 

[Dave Noble]

I have little sympathy for those that just went, "Oh, AA has made a mistake, lets screw them" and booked the fares knowing that there was no chance that it was a genuine fare. If AA honours it, then ker ching, lucky call... I see no grounds for tantrums if AA takes it back saying "sorry, we screwed up, but here's $200 to make up for the inconveniance"

If they had mistakenly put JRT in as booking into A, then they mighta been more inclined to let it go I suspect since they wouldn't have (a) had a feeding frenzy in the shark pool and (b) still probably have been able to make a profit , but a Q class booking into A , I would expect them to take it back

Find a mistake fare and try to take advantage , I would say (a) keep quiet since the less sold the less incentive for them to backtrack and (b) accept it is a win some , lose some situation in the shark pool

Dave

 

[freofan]

Well said Dave