Crikey its Plane Talking.... well perhaps....

[mannej]

I actually don't understand why people think skytrax is really that great anyway!

It's a reference point


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app

 

[ajw373]

Cost cutting at the expensive of crew and passengers is what got them into their current mess, so it is what is going to get them out? :-|
Maybe they don't do as well on international routes because they don't offer a product of the standard of their competitors or at competitive prices? Honestly, direction can be changed without punishing the staff, who are QF most important asset.

I view it a bit differently. With staff costs so high and being at a geographic disadvantage compared to Qantas's main competitors they have been left with little option but to cut elsewhere, which has made their product suffer. Wouldn't call it uncompetitive though, especially as on a truly world stage Qantas are still without doubt a top 10 airline, and domestically offer a product that I have never seen anywhere else in the world on domestic/short haul routes.

As for getting themselves out of the mess, the staff need to wake up and smell the roses and work with management. The status quo cannot remain. For Qantas to compete on a world scale they need to offshore their GROWTH, which does mean jobs and maintenance. I believe if that were done the airline could grow thus ensuring the existing jobs could be maintained even if the cost is higher (reflecting the much higher cost of living here). Bottom line though is ANY international growth must be done through offshore entities at a lower cost than Qantas now.

 

[oz_mark]

I did that on the YSSY message board a while back. Out of Emirates, Qantas and Cathay, Qantas had the highest staff costs as a % of total operating costs, coming it at 1/4, which was just slightly higher than their fuel costs which when rounded also came out at 1/4. With Cathay and Emirates their labour costs were 1/6th of total operating costs with fuel at 1/3. Speaks volumes I think.

Virgin Blue is about 22% on staff. Qantas is a bit unusual in that it has staff costs higher than fuel costs.

What is distorting though, is that the annual report shows consolidated figures for the Qantas group, I suspect it is actually worse for Qantas, as there will be a Jetstar effect in there. Not sure if you can get figures for Jetstar outside the consolidated figure. I think if you could remove that, the proportion spent on staff in Qantas mainline would be even higher.

 

[ajw373]

Virgin Blue is about 22% on staff. Qantas is a bit unusual in that it has staff costs higher than fuel costs.

What is distorting though, is that the annual report shows consolidated figures for the Qantas group, I suspect it is actually worse for Qantas, as there will be a Jetstar effect in there. Not sure if you can get figures for Jetstar outside the consolidated figure. I think if you could remove that, the proportion spent on staff in Qantas mainline would be even higher.

Agree 100%, though for the most part Virgin is a domestic airline, so the higher cost of staff is reflected in the price we pay in fares, and indeed if I am not mistaken Qantas domestic is the strongest performer in the group for the same reason.

Internationally they have not a hope in hell in competing with high staff costs, hence why I suggested that any o/s growth needs to be done through offshore entities, in the hope that that increases or maintains passenger flow into Aus, thus keeping most of the existing staff in a job. But alas the pilots and FA unions object to any offshore bases and maintenance to any offshore maintenance, despite the latter being the worldwide norm.

Anyway getting O/T does Mr Sandilands ever address the simple facts, or is he like a tabloid newspaper journalist who, rather than reporting facts feel compelled to take a side and put a spin on things? I think the latter.

 

[Standby]

An interesting point I havent seen raised here is the impact the unions have as well. The same unions TWU, ALAEA,ASU(or whatever they call themselves at the moment) & the pilots are or have pushed for higher wage outcomes than equiv negotiations agreed with DJ. And this goes back to DJs start up where the unions agreed to lower rates of pay than for equivelant roles at QF for people doing the same tasks and responsibilities.
In my view they have contributed to speeding up to offshoring by not equating above range wage outcomes = higher cost per unit of output & in the long run less job security for their members

 

[pauly7]

Internationally they have not a hope in hell in competing with high staff costs, hence why I suggested that any o/s growth needs to be done through offshore entities, in the hope that that increases or maintains passenger flow into Aus, thus keeping most of the existing staff in a job. But alas the pilots and FA unions object to any offshore bases and maintenance to any offshore maintenance, despite the latter being the worldwide norm..

Completely agree - and so does the QF management team: hence your 'Jetconnects' and the rumours of 'Qantas Asia'.

It makes complete sense and actually gives QF International a future - which in turn will also strengthen the other parts of their business.

Alas also the media (e.g. Our fave Mr BS - what appropriate initials!!!) and other people that attack any step QF/AJ take to try and preserve the future for QF in the misguided thought that they are 'saving jobs'. They aren't. Well not for long....

It's time for some tough decisions. That is for sure.

 

[ajw373]

In my view they have contributed to speeding up to offshoring by not equating above range wage outcomes = higher cost per unit of output & in the long run less job security for their members

Asking for higher output is one of the things that Qantas management has asked for to reduce overall costs, but the counter arguments as seen on the 6pm news and the tabloid newspapers is this is dangerous for the passenger. I.e fear campaign. Doesn't matter that other airlines including Australian ones already work this way, quite safely too.

 

[Standby]

Asking for higher output is one of the things that Qantas management has asked for to reduce overall costs, but the counter arguments as seen on the 6pm news and the tabloid newspapers is this is dangerous for the passenger. I.e fear campaign. Doesn't matter that other airlines including Australian ones already work this way, quite safely too.

Sorry by high uinit cost per ouput my main thrust is the unions have knowingly added to the lack of competitiveness which undermines job security. I suspect agreed work practises at DJ are more flexible than QF. Again contributed to by the same unions.
Agree QF have asked for improved productivity via new technology such as new Dom checkin systems but also more flexible work conditions more aligned to the current norms with other carriers

 

[ajw373]

Sorry by high uinit cost per ouput my main thrust is the unions have knowingly added to the lack of competitiveness which undermines job security. I suspect agreed work practises at DJ are more flexible than QF. Again contributed to by the same unions.
Agree QF have asked for improved productivity via new technology such as new Dom checkin systems but also more flexible work conditions more aligned to the current norms with other carriers

Agree 100% with you, was getting to the same point.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

In which geographic direction is LH expanding? Bet it isn't towards their south or east (of Germany), which is where the bulk of the hub carriers that cruel Qantas are located. Bet it is more towards the west where they are on an equal footing with their European and American competition. Just like when Qantas flies to our East, which has always been their strongest market.So point being different market and competition.

What new routes has QF (Int, and not JQ either) added in the last few years? DFW?
SFO - cut
Hawaii - downsized
Japan - downsized


LH (New routes in 2011)The new destinations in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Frankfurt – Trondheim
Frankfurt – Palermo
Munich – Antalya
Munich – Ibiza
Munich – Palermo

The new routes in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Düsseldorf – Bergen
Frankfurt – Bastia
Frankfurt – Genua
Frankfurt – Olbia
Frankfurt – Split
Frankfurt – Westerland/Sylt
Frankfurt – Rostock/Laage
Munich – Dublin
Munich – Malta
Munich - SFO + Miami (2010)

 

[nlagalle]

What new routes has QF (Int, and not JQ either) added in the last few years? DFW?
SFO - cut
Hawaii - downsized
Japan - downsized


LH (New routes in 2011)The new destinations in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Frankfurt – Trondheim
Frankfurt – Palermo
Munich – Antalya
Munich – Ibiza
Munich – Palermo

The new routes in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Düsseldorf – Bergen
Frankfurt – Bastia
Frankfurt – Genua
Frankfurt – Olbia
Frankfurt – Split
Frankfurt – Westerland/Sylt
Frankfurt – Rostock/Laage
Munich – Dublin
Munich – Malta
Munich - SFO + Miami (2010)

I don't think that is a good comparison, how about what Long haul LH has put on? Those destinations are more like QF Dom routes!

 

[ajw373]

What new routes has QF (Int, and not JQ either) added in the last few years? DFW?
SFO - cut
Hawaii - downsized
Japan - downsized


LH (New routes in 2011)The new destinations in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Frankfurt – Trondheim
Frankfurt – Palermo
Munich – Antalya
Munich – Ibiza
Munich – Palermo

The new routes in the Lufthansa 2011 summer timetable
Düsseldorf – Bergen
Frankfurt – Bastia
Frankfurt – Genua
Frankfurt – Olbia
Frankfurt – Split
Frankfurt – Westerland/Sylt
Frankfurt – Rostock/Laage
Munich – Dublin
Munich – Malta
Munich - SFO + Miami (2010)

Interesting list of routes, and is what I suspected. In essence they are trying to be a hub carrier for the many smaller and developing European countries. As your list shows they are flying them to Frankfurt in particular to then distribute them on.

If the Pacific Island nations had the ability to develop sufficiently to afford long distance international traffic then maybe Qantas could develop an Australian city as a hub, but until such time Qantas is either an end destination carrier or needs to develop a major offshore hub to take traffic off Emirates, Singapore and Thai.

 

[Jobu]

I view it a bit differently. With staff costs so high and being at a geographic disadvantage compared to Qantas's main competitors they have been left with little option but to cut elsewhere, which has made their product suffer. Wouldn't call it uncompetitive though, especially as on a truly world stage Qantas are still without doubt a top 10 airline, and domestically offer a product that I have never seen anywhere else in the world on domestic/short haul routes.

As for getting themselves out of the mess, the staff need to wake up and smell the roses and work with management. The status quo cannot remain. For Qantas to compete on a world scale they need to offshore their GROWTH, which does mean jobs and maintenance. I believe if that were done the airline could grow thus ensuring the existing jobs could be maintained even if the cost is higher (reflecting the much higher cost of living here). Bottom line though is ANY international growth must be done through offshore entities at a lower cost than Qantas now.

Two concerns I have as a passenger with what seems to be going on with Qantas are: (1) the possibility that the low staff morale I read about could ultimately start to impact the safety record of the airline; and (2) could offshoring too many jobs, particularly customer facing people, mean that Qantas could start to lose its unique and positive Australianess, its feel, its vibe, culture and ultimately that intangible thing we call the spirit of Australia?

 

[ajw373]

...mean that Qantas could start to lose its unique and positive Australianess, its feel, its vibe, culture and ultimately that intangible thing we call the spirit of Australia?

Are you willing to pay extra for this uniqueness? That's what it gets down to.

 

[Jobu]

Are you willing to pay extra for this uniqueness? That's what it gets down to.

All things equal, yes.

Haven't you ever paid more for a flight because you prefer the airline?

And I'm especially willing to pay extra for a first class safety record.

 

[ajw373]

All things equal, yes.

Haven't you ever paid more for a flight because you prefer the airline?

And I'm especially willing to pay extra for a first class safety record.

Actually I too am the same, however I seriously doubt that Joe public is, especially overseas passengers, who make up a good % of Qantas international passengers.