Denied boarding and Premium Economy down grading – compensation if flying to EU

[Julian P]

On Friday 6 November I was due to fly in a Premium Economy from London to Sydney. After queuing for a nearly an hour in the “Premium” queue I was told that the flight was full and was now closed so I would not be able to board.
The supervisor booked me on another airline in premium economy to Singapore and then from Singapore to Sydney on Singapore Airlines in Economy.
I did receive the 300 Euros compensation due for denied boarding but according to my interpretation of EU Law a further refund is also due. I emailed the airline but after 35 days of waiting received an email which was long but did not get us anywhere and includes a bizarre interpretation of the law which the EU would never have intended. Their reply also states that the booking is now cancelled as I did not fly with them on the outward journey (!?).
Does anyone else have any experience of this?
It seems to me that the matter is covered by the following law which states the compensation that must be paid for denied boarding or downgrading for any flight starting or ending anywhere in the EU.
I wonder if many Australians are aware of the compensation that they are owed if they are denied boarding a flight to London at Sydney Airport? It is 300 Euros (currently $480 AUD) and then a further 300 Euros if they cannot be rebooked to arrive within 4 hours of their original arrival time. There are other compensations too – see the law below.
The Law:
REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
“Article 10
Upgrading and downgrading
1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.

2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse
(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or
(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.”
My Email of 11th November requesting a refund:
Dear Sirs,
I spoke to Expedia today and they have said that you requested an email from me direct. Brief details:
1) Above booking xx_X - is a return flight from London to Sydney in Premium Economy.
2) When I arrived on Friday I was denied boarding as you overbooked the flight.
3) I was paid 300 Euros as required by the REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT, Article 7. And I was re-booked to fly to Singapore (Premium Economy) and then from Singapore to Sydney on Singapore Airlines (Economy).
4) I do not wish to cancel the booking.
5) You owe me compensation under Article 10 for downgrading my booking on Singapore Airlines to Economy - 75% of the ticket price is refundable for downgrading and this is payable within seven days of the flight.
I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.
Reply mail on 16 December – 35 days later
Our ref: xx_x
Hello Mr Peterson
Thank you for emailing us about your flight to Sydney in November.
We do try to reply to passengers within the time limit specified in our acknowledgement email. I'm really sorry that this didn't happen here. I understand you wanted us to contact you on the number you've given.
However, we correspond with passengers through written communication. So I'm afraid we aren't able to meet your request.
It's concerning that you couldn't travel with us as planned as our flight was overbooked. Unfortunately, overbooking is a normal part of the airline business. The truth is that if we didn't overbook our flights our planes would always leave with empty seats. This is because there are always passengers who change their flight at the last minute or don't show up. We do try and leave as big a margin of error as possible to make sure we don't have to deny boarding to anyone. Even so, sometimes we have to take this step if the flight is overbooked.
I've noted that you received the compensation offered to you for not being able to take the flight that you were booked on. However, as you didn't travel with us that day, we cancelled your booking with us.
Even so, I can see that we rebooked you on other airlines to travel via Singapore. Although we could book you in the same cabin on your first flight, it's disappointing that this wasn't possible on the Singapore Airlines flight. I realise how upsetting this must have been for you. In such situations, we do our best to make sure passengers travel in the same class that they're originally booked. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible.
As for a refund of 75% of your ticket, this is applicable only if you were booked to travel in Premium Economy and were downgraded to our Economy cabin. Or, if you were rebooked in a lower cabin on another airline for the entire journey. I hope you'll accept that this wasn't the case with you. Nevertheless, I've forwarded your email to our refunds team so that they can look into your request for a refund of the difference in fares. You'll hear from them soon.
Once again, I'm sorry for what happened. I hope we'll see you on board again soon and that you'll have a much more enjoyable experience in future.
I also take this opportunity to wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Kind regards
Customer Relations Executive
My reply email of 16th December 2009:
Your ref:xx_x
Johanna,
Very disappointing that the image and PR is not reflected in the service. No seat on the day means you treat premium class passengers worse than economy and delay in replying just goes to emphasise that.
Anyway to the point:
Booking not cancelled
First, I am very concerned that you say "we cancelled your booking with us" - this booking is most certainly not cancelled, the return flight is on 25 April 2010 on flight 201. Please confirm.
Refund for downgrading
Second, of course there is a refund due! You booked me in Economy on Singapore airlines when I paid for Premium Economy. End of argument. Or perhaps you are saying that Singapore Airlines economy is as good as your premium economy? If so, please put that in writing.
For your information, below is reproduced the law which makes no reference to "rebooked in a lower cabin on another airline for the entire journey" - the relevant passage is in bold for you.
REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
Article 10 - Upgrading and downgrading
1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.
2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse
(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or
(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.
The law also states that the refund will be paid within 7 days - not 41 days which is the length of time for you to reply.
I do look forward to receiving the above confirmation and refund within the next 7 days failing which proceedings will follow in the relevant jurisdiction - the UK in the case of flights originating in the UK. Costs and interest will be included.
The best way forward is to pay what you owe, confirm the booking for April and for us all to get on with something more productive.
--
Still waiting for a reply but on 29 December received an electronic refund of:
REFUND - REFUND DEPT GBR GBP 183.00 = AUD $331
No idea how this was calculated – so I will report further when I know.

 

[VirginiaF]

my partner was downgraded from pe to economy in october (qantas lax-syd). still no email, letter, or refund! i guess eu rules don't apply - more reason not to communicate with pax who get less than what they pay for?

 

[Dave Noble]

I see one big problem in that your downgrade was from Singapore to Sydney

Since QF is not an EU carrier, the EU rules only apply to flights departing the EU and you were not downgraded on the flight to Singapore

I don't see that you are likely to be entitled under EU regs for a downgrade that occurred on a journey not covered by them

Dave

 

[Julian P]

Dave,

I think that Virgin Atlantic, British Airways and Qantas would all try to agree with you.

However, my booking was "London to Sydney" and, therefore, I would argue that the European Union law applies to the whole journey. I think they would too - if you were right then EU compensation would never apply at Sydney airport to anyone flying to London - I would say that it does.

It seems that the airline concerned also agree as they have now issued a partial refund though I am waiting to see how they work out a refund of $331 for 1 leg downgrade on a ticket that cost $2945.

It is great to have this debate - there is very little about these regulations on the internet and I am sure that a number of travellers who are downgraded or denied boarding do not receive the compensation that they are entitled to.

J

 

[Dave Noble]

Dave,

I think that Virgin Atlantic, British Airways and Qantas would all try to agree with you.

However, my booking was "London to Sydney" and, therefore, I would argue that the European Union law applies to the whole journey. I think they would too - if you were right then EU compensation would never apply at Sydney airport to anyone flying to London - I would say that it does.

You might want it to apply, but it doesn't apply to non-EU airlines in Sydney.

The regulations apply if

departing from an EU member state, or
travelling to an EU member state on an airline based in an EU member state

It would apply if travelling on BA to LHR ex SYD but not if travelling on Qantas

Given that you were rebooked LHR-SIN-SYD I cannot see how you will successfully be able to make a claim for the downgrade outside of the EU, since neither QF nor SQ are covered by the regulations for SIN-SYD and you were not downgraded on the flight which is covered by the regulations

Dave

 

[Julian P]

Dave,

The regulations apply equally to all airlines flying to or from the EU.

It seems that the EU definitely intended this to apply to the entire journey from their definition:

"‘final destination’ means the destination on the ticket presented at the check-in counter or, in the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight;"

I have received a refund of some kind and will post the airlines comments when received. I have also emailed the enforcing authorities in the UK.

I do believe that anyone denied boarding at Sydney airport when checking in to fly to London would be entitled the 300 Euros on the spot.

J​

 

[Dave Noble]

Dave,

The regulations apply equally to all airlines flying to or from the EU.


I do believe that anyone denied boarding at Sydney airport when checking in to fly to London would be entitled the 300 Euros on the spot.

No, they do not. Read the regulations to which you keep referring and look at the section on applicability

It states clearly

1. This Regulation shall apply:
(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies;
(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a third country to an airport situated in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies, unless they received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that third country, if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier.

QF is not an EU community carrier and so is not obligated ex-AU

Dave

 

[serfty]

Welcome to AFF Julian P

These EU regulations apply to ALL flights departing an EU country or operated by an EU carrier.

There is NO applicability to flights operated by a non-EU carrier departing form any non-EU port.

In the OP's case they are covered by the regulation as they were booked on a Qantas (non-EU) flight departing from LHR (EU).

 

[gilby08]

This may just be too obvious, but why are you demanding so much extra cash??

You were put onto another flight, within the same cabin (although not the same carrier), they got you to your destination and they paid you 300 Euro's..

Why do you want even more money???

 

[serfty]

...

I do believe that anyone denied boarding at Sydney airport when checking in to fly to London would be entitled the 300 Euros on the spot.

J​

This would apply ONLY if booked on a EU carrier such as BA.

As far as downgrading compensation goes, there is little grey in the regulation other than the definition of "the Price of the Ticket". EU commentary indicates this is the published fare in the class reserved, for that flight sector."

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/passenger_rights/doc/2008/q_and_a_en.pdf#page=12

If an air carrier or tour operator places a passenger in a class lower than that for which reservations were confirmed, it shall reimburse 30%, 50% or 75%, as applicable, of the published fare in the class reserved, for that flight sector.

As pointed out, EU cover is provided for the entire journey of the original booking. Downgrade compensation may be payable for the SIN-SYD leg only.

I suggest the OP ascertain the published (IATA?) fare for Premium Economy for SIN-SYD.

 

[Dave Noble]

You were put onto another flight, within the same cabin (although not the same carrier), they got you to your destination and they paid you 300 Euro's..

It wasn't the same cabin from SIN-SYD

Dave

 

[Dave Noble]

As pointed out, EU cover is provided for the entire journey of the original booking. Downgrade compensation may be payable for the SIN-SYD leg only.

I suggest the OP ascertain the published (IATA?) fare for Premium Economy for SIN-SYD.

There would be other questions I would say in that are the sections coughulative plus what options were given the customer. If offered a flight in PE (but later in day) yet chose to take the SQ flight instead, it may no longer be an involuntary downgrade mayhaps. Also, there is the question of whether Premium Economy is still economy or counts as a separate cabin

There is one other v important question. Had the passenger reached the check in desk more than 45 mins before departure time; if not, then the airline can use that to get out of it anyways
Dave

 

[harvyk]

I'm with the OP on this one. Effectively a service (transport from A to B to C) was purchased at a certain class of travel. The OP did everything correctly in accordance to their side of the contract, and yet were denied boarding.

The question that remains is was the OP offered the opportunity to take a different flight from SIN - SYD so that they where still in Y+ or better? If they where not given that option then I do believe that the carrier is liable.

Carriers do have the right to downgrade a pax for operational reasons, provided that they give the pax the option to travel on a different flight at the class originally booked. If they failed to give this as an option then the carrier (I'm assuming QF, however the OP has said the name singapore airlines, but has failed to indicate who was the original carrier) would more than likely still be liable for the cost of downgrading.

 

[serfty]

One question...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:046:0001:0007:EN:PDF

...
I did receive the 300 Euros compensation due for denied boarding but according to my interpretation of EU Law a further refund is also due. ...

According to my reckoning for denied boarding of flights greater than 3500 Km, you were entitled to each one of the following:

• €600 as per section 7
• re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to your final destination as per section 8 (Partially given, downgraded SIN-SYD)
• Meals and refreshments & hotel accommodation in a reasonable relation to the waiting time as per section 9. (May not have been necessary)

How come you only received €300?

 

[Dave Noble]

How come you only received €300?

If arrival time at destination is within a certain time frame, then the benefits are halved

Where rerouting is offered and results in the passenger arriving within two/three/four hours of the scheduled arrival time for a type 1/2/3 flight, the compensation payable is halved.

Dave

 

[serfty]

If arrival time at destination is within a certain time frame, then the benefits are halved

Where rerouting is offered and results in the passenger arriving within two/three/four hours of the scheduled arrival time for a type 1/2/3 flight, the compensation payable is halved.

Dave

Of course ...

2. When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival
time of the flight originally booked

• by two hours, in respect of all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less; or
• by three hours, in respect of all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres; or
• by four hours, in respect of all flights not falling under (a) or (b),

the operating air carrier may reduce the compensation provided for in paragraph 1 by 50 %.

 

[medhead]

It seems that the airline concerned also agree as they have now issued a partial refund though I am waiting to see how they work out a refund of $331 for 1 leg downgrade on a ticket that cost $2945.

Welcome to AFF

I'm a bit confused here. You say it is a return ticket, LHR-SYD-LHR, as you've raised concerns that they didn't cancel the return part. So does the above mean that the whole return journey cost $2945?

If so, my guess-i-mate of how they worked it out is, outward journey ($2945/2) $1472, prorata on travel time about 1/3 SIN-SYD = $490. 75% of $490 is $368 - not far off.

BTW have you put your booking reference into Check My Trip to see if the return still exists?

 

[Dave Noble]

If so, my guest-i-mate of how they worked it out is, outward journey ($2945/2) $1472, prorata on travel time about 1/3 SIN-SYD = $490. 75% of $490 is $368 - not far off.

If they have done this, then would seem definite that he should be entitled to more since the regulations do not specify a pro rata refund based on a percentage of fare paid against distance but against the published fare for the route downgraded

Dave

 

[medhead]

If they have done this, then would seem definite that he should be entitled to more since the regulations do not specify a pro rata refund based on a percentage of fare paid against distance but against the published fare for the route downgraded

Dave

Sorry Dave

I just used the prorata to estimate what proporntion of the LHR - SYD fare could be attributed to the SIN-SYD part of the journey. A simple shorthand way to guess at the respective fares, without actually looking them up. As you say I should have noted that the actual fares might be vastly different from my guessimate And also not the proper fare that they need to use for the penalty calculation, as required by the rules

 

[serfty]

... There is one other v important question. Had the passenger reached the check in desk more than 45 mins before departure time; if not, then the airline can use that to get out of it anyways
Dave

I have the distinct impression the OP did reach the check-in counter before the check-in time limit - otherwise I suspect that NO compensation would have been offered nor paid.