DJ Premium Economy- Controversial

[crazydave98]

For business travel my employer provides economy transport with fully flexible fare conditions. For DJ that means Corporate Plus fares with its included bonus of lounge access. However, with QF I can use personal FF points to upgrade to J, which I do whenever possible - primarily for the room (both width and length). I'm not terribly fussed about meals on short-haul flights.

The ability to upgrade to PE using Velocity rewards points would clinch many of the flight decisions that currently go Qantas's way.

Richard.

Thanks Richard. I belive the ability to upgrade using Velocity points is being looked at. Dumb question but if your employer will spring for Corporate Plus what stops them going to PE? Do they regard it as a separate "class" above economy?

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[docjames]

Do they regard it as a separate "class" above economy?

Doesnt Virgin?

 

[notzac]

Dumb question but if your employer will spring for Corporate Plus what stops them going to PE?

Our corporate travel policy stipulates Economy is the only permissible fare class for domestic travel.

 

[rwatts]

Thanks Richard. I belive the ability to upgrade using Velocity points is being looked at. Dumb question but if your employer will spring for Corporate Plus what stops them going to PE? Do they regard it as a separate "class" above economy?

cheers

CrazyDave98

Think large(st) government department. My collective agreement says

Class of air travel. Employees required to travel between localities in Australia travel Economy class.

Naturally higher level managers get to travel business class. I'm betting that there wouldnt be too many of them that consider PE to equate to business class for their entitlements but none the less they have obviously decided that PE is above the economy class entitlement for mere plebs.

DJ should feel free to convince them otherwise !

Richard.

 

[Platy]

A bit cheeky asking someone what they paid for their seat isn't it?

I wonder if your friend would do the same if they flew J in QF and thought someone may not "look" like they had paid business?

Nah, you don't need to ask the person next to you in QF domestic J, there's a better than 50-50 chance they are QF staff....

 

[comint]

A bit cheeky asking someone what they paid for their seat isn't it?

Much easier to just take a glance at their boarding pass, and read the fare code off it:!:

 

[crazydave98]

Doesnt Virgin?

No, it is simply a bundling of other products. Otherwise we would have tried to pass it off as a cheap business class - as others have noted it's a better product than J class short haul on most European airlines.

 

[docjames]

No, it is simply a bundling of other products. Otherwise we would have tried to pass it off as a cheap business class - as others have noted it's a better product than J class short haul on most European airlines.

Not to upset, but postulating that perhaps that's part of the issue - not "special" enough for full fare QF travellers (who will frequently upgrade to J).

 

[pauly7]

Not to upset, but postulating that perhaps that's part of the issue - not "special" enough for full fare QF travellers (who will frequently upgrade to J).

And who can secure exit row seats / bulkheads easily and for free.

For me DJ PE = QF exit row

 

[Platy]

And who can secure exit row seats / bulkheads easily and for free.

For me DJ PE = QF exit row

A query (it' along time since I flew DJ) -are meals cooked in aircraft ovens or microwaves?

IMHO the Blue Zone makes a mockery of DJ PE. Simply pay the $25-$25 extra and the for your meals/drinks and you basically have bundled a D-I-Y PE experience.

PE is WAY over-priced to be taken seriously as an economy product and offers way too little to be taken seriously as a business class product.

The classic DJ problem - caught between two stools - neither a LCC nor a full servcie airline and often more expensive in economy than QF economy on the routes I frequent.

DJ are riding on smoke and mirrors branding rather than substance. Sorry to say it since I would love to see some serious competition for Qf especially at the biz end.

DJ have had enough years in the game to have got these things right, but for some reason (unimaginative owners???) blither along in no man's land.

Just my personal perceptions of course...

 

[Platy]

No, it is simply a bundling of other products. Otherwise we would have tried to pass it off as a cheap business class

What, instead of passing off a bundle of component products, which individually add up to far less than the price you are charging for in your bundle called PE?! No wonder you've got space to fill PE seats with low fare pax (and thereby (somewhat stupidly IMHO) dilute your PE product brand)!!!

 

[wallacej]

......snip.....
The classic DJ problem - caught between two stools - neither a LCC nor a full servcie airline and often more expensive in economy than QF economy on the routes I frequent.
......
Just my personal perceptions of course...

Curious to know which routes you fly. I fly DJ most often as our company operates BFOD, and 9 times out of 10 it is DJ - MEL-SYD, BNE, ADL, PER.

I agree that it does find itself stuck in between, but I travel a lot, and really do prefer DJ.

and of course, these are my personal perceptions

I do agree with other comments that PE is way over priced for what it actually is.

 

[crazydave98]

PE is WAY over-priced to be taken seriously as an economy product and offers way too little to be taken seriously as a business class product.

As I said it is not meant to be a substitute for business class but very happy for you to compare them anyway. As to over-priced for an economy product, if you compare it against Qantas Full Y (which is the target) it is:

• cheaper
• includes Lounge entry
• includes 32kg baggage
• has 2 abreast seating with table adjacent to seats
• has 34" pitch
• individual IFE (live2air)
• better food & drinks selection (in my opinion)
• earns more points

In fact for the inclusions it should be priced at a healthy premium to Qantas Full Y.

I don't see how you figure Blue Zone makes a mockery of PE. All you get for Blue Zone is the leg room - and you are in the middle of the aircraft so last off. Blue Zone is an alternative not a substitute.

 

[Platy]

As I said it is not meant to be a substitute for business class but very happy for you to compare them anyway. As to over-priced for an economy product, if you compare it against Qantas Full Y (which is the target) it is:

• cheaper
• includes Lounge entry
• includes 32kg baggage
• has 2 abreast seating with table adjacent to seats
• has 34" pitch
• individual IFE (live2air)
• better food & drinks selection (in my opinion)
• earns more points

In fact for the inclusions it should be priced at a healthy premium to Qantas Full Y.

I don't see how you figure Blue Zone makes a mockery of PE. All you get for Blue Zone is the leg room - and you are in the middle of the aircraft so last off. Blue Zone is an alternative not a substitute.

It's simple maths when comparing BZ with PE. I can buy a $205 sector CNS-SYD. Plus the $35 Blue Zone for the roomier seat in the exit row. There is NO lounge in CNS, so no need to add on the cost of a one-off visit ($30). A few beers and a meal on board would cost, what, $40 tops? So, I'm up to $280. Now in my own case I rarely check in luggage (it might matter to others). Exiting from rows 12/13 (or whatever) rather than 1 or 2 isn't going to hold me up unduly.

The PE fare is $705!!! More than double the cost!!! The only conceivable over-riding benefit in my own case would be the flexibility of the fare.

The bottom line is that I can get an essentially similar (some room and sustenance) flight experience for less than half the price by travelling Blue Zone on a cheaper ticket allowing for drinks and food IF I forego flexibility.

NOW QF on the same day I looked at (Tuesday next week) is CHEAPER at $189. Unlike DJ, QF have a lounge in CNS. Because I am Platinum I get FREE lounge access so at least some drinks and snacks (or even a light meal) for FREE. Plus priority for a forward seat or a reasonable chance of an exit row.

Incidentally, I wouldn't dream of paying full price Y on QF anymore than I would consider there to be even remotely attractive value in PE. For a 60% saving in ticket cost I find a way to "work around" the flexibility issue.

Flexibility is a vexed issue anyway given the ridiculously long refund times and (in the case of QF) a desire to rip off the customer in terms of a rebooking fee.

The success of DJ, Impulse, JQ etc has been to get more people into aircraft and expand the market - the downside is you have created a legacy of scrooges when it comes to paying, whether individuals or companies, a markeptlace obsessed with PRICE (not value) and way too late into your product development (6-7 years!!!) decided to tinker with perceptions of VALUE and biz travel.

Look, I used to travel J exclusively domestically, but when the differential between J class fares (which skyrocketed in QF over the last few years) and discount economy can be as much as a ten fold difference, I simply couldn't ignore the pure economic argument to forego an extremely indulgent luxury.

As a traveller in the current market I can cut my losses by either paying the Blue Zone on DJ (which I used to do when I travelled DJ exclusively for a while) or keeping up my status with QF to get complimentary lounge access, priority for a reasonable seat in Y, and being less demanding about my travel times. My spend has gone from $30,000 to $5,000, an 80% saving!!!

In many cases QF check in staff will try to accommodate a flight change even though they don't have to! In contrast my experiences with DJ was that at times check in staff ignroed the BZ and had to be (politely) reminded to issue a BP for a BZ seat.

Furthermore, thanks to this forum, I have found out how to maintain Platinum status with QF for a relatively low travel budget!!!

To conclude, it appears to me (rightly or wrongly) that DJ doesn't promote the BZ much at all. I must assume this is partly because it is appreciated internally at DJ that the smart traveller can use BZ at the potential expense of PE!!!

 

[DJ737]

Hi there

I still haven't worked out if you get seated in PE on domestic flights connecting to V Australia in PE or Business class, and is lounge access available in domestic ports with a PE / Business class ticket.

Cheers
DJ737

 

[wallacej]

As I said it is not meant to be a substitute for business class but very happy for you to compare them anyway. As to over-priced for an economy product, if you compare it against Qantas Full Y (which is the target) it is:

• cheaper
• includes Lounge entry
• includes 32kg baggage
• has 2 abreast seating with table adjacent to seats
• has 34" pitch
• individual IFE (live2air)
• better food & drinks selection (in my opinion)
• earns more points

In fact for the inclusions it should be priced at a healthy premium to Qantas Full Y.

I don't see how you figure Blue Zone makes a mockery of PE. All you get for Blue Zone is the leg room - and you are in the middle of the aircraft so last off. Blue Zone is an alternative not a substitute.

Hi Dave,
I guess I compare DJ against DJ itself rather than with QF. As you know I fly DJ almost exclusively, so when I look at the PE offer against what I already get with DJ
cheaper - Against QF full Y, as you mentioned (will take your word on that one.
includes Lounge entry - I already get that as Gold
includes 32kg baggage - already get that as gold
has 2 abreast seating with table adjacent to seats- I like this, but often score it anyway if I ask just before check in.
has 34" pitch -makes not much difference, but is nice
individual IFE (live2air) - can pay $5-$10 to get it
better food & drinks selection (in my opinion) -better than QF, I agree but can pay $14 for my scotch & ceaser wrap (my standard)
earns more points- relative to amount paid
extra point:flexibility of travel arrangements - not an issue from my end - but most often if my plans change I could probably buy another ticket, and still be ahead, or pay the $35 change fee if I know my changes 24 hours in advance.

I guess the point of PE is to lure those paying QF full Y prices to DJ, as you mentioned above is the target - not knowing what full Y prices on QF are I don't know if it is good value or not.

From my perspective as an existing DJ convert, I like PE but think it is overpriced compared to already good DJ pricing.

A couple of extra lounges (or Lounge Lite as discussed in another thread) would be a great addition to help swing those full paying Y QF passengers. However, I am not sure how many of them are out there. Maybe QF don't sell very many QF fully Y fares, hence the slow take up, maybe that market is not very large???

I would suggest that DJ maybe price it to a smaller premium above their own fully flex fare, and ignore what QF charge.

Hard one, but with the number of flights I am on, I am yet to see a full PE cabin (except maybe on the PER runs) - allowing points to upgrade, and reducing the price of PE might be an option?

 

[ANstar]

The PE fare is $705!!! More than double the cost!!! The only conceivable over-riding benefit in my own case would be the flexibility of the fare.

!!!

As has been mentioned above, it appears PE is priced to compete with QF's full Y fare.

The DJ arguement I am sure is the same for QF.

When there is a $149 SYD-CNS Red E deal on, then why would you pay $800 for the same seat (QF's full Y price) ... What a rip off!

It is the same with Virgin's PE, yet they do offer a little extra for the more $$$. Is it value? that's upto the individual, but the competition does exactly the same but with a lesser product.

As for who buys full fare tickets? My partners work always buy full Y... waste of money? Probably, but they do. So I guess that is the market DJ are after.

Hi there

I still haven't worked out if you get seated in PE on domestic flights connecting to V Australia in PE or Business class, and is lounge access available in domestic ports with a PE / Business class ticket.

Cheers
DJ737

V Aus business and premium Y bookings will be booked into Premium Economy on domestic sectors - the info is up on their website as of a few days ago under the travel class sections.

 

[Platy]

I am yet to see a full PE cabin (except maybe on the PER runs)

Yep, product marketing 101, if the product ain't selling then either the price is wrong or the product is wrong.

Principal product weakness: serious brand problem = neither economy nor business!

Principal price weakness: PE price obviously too high for the savvy traveller!

Secondary product weakness: FF scheme (no upgrades, no alliance tie in)

Tertiary product weakness: lounges only in select airports

(PS. Web site not updated to include new Perth Lounge).

Major strategic blunder - worrying about what QF are doing rather than genuinely demarcating a point of differentiation.

Conclusion = relying on brand hype too much with an attitude of being content to play second fiddle. Disappointing because QF really do need more serious competition.

I hope we see something of substance with the FF promotion...

Marketing failures - include not capitalising on differentiators (such as no change fees on flexible fares (?I think?), true seat pitch).

To this day I have great difficulty shaking off the image of the SYD DJ launch at which Branson posed on the wing of the first DJ 737 with a couple of dolled up hosties (I use that term for effect) whilst we chomped down on partly warmed up meat pies. That summed up the brand promise then and I don't see it has changed (although ironically Branson has very little control these days?)...

 

[pauly7]

As for who buys full fare tickets? My partners work always buy full Y... waste of money? Probably, but they do. So I guess that is the market DJ are after.

.

I think you have answered probably one of the critical reasons that PE has failed (before you even get the the standard of the product or the pricing).

- The target as stated are supposedly people who fly Y code (or corporate iterations of e.g. B).
- People who do fly Y or B etc I would say are very likely to be in corporate enviroments with travel policies - I would say an overwhelming % would be.
- Corporate travel policies are usually very clear e.g. Economy for domestic. Period. There is no such term as PE even in existance as options.
- Therefore all corporates even if they do use DJ which to begin with is not as likely -they will only book economy. Period.

Then to compound this;
- Higher level management who get to travel in J would not even think (and probably don't even know DJ exist) about stooping to PE when they can get fawned over in QF J.

Therefore DJ is left trying to flog PE to smaller business and individuals who are far more value driven. And guess what they aren't buying.

And thats before you even get to the product/price - which others have commented on enough I think!

 

[dajop]

All other arguments not withstanding, I think pauly7 has probably hit the nail on the head:

Corporate travel policies are usually very clear e.g. Economy for domestic. Period. There is no such term as PE even in existance as options.

Depending on how strictly policies are policed and audited against, it takes some bravery in some corporates to even attempt to book PE if other economy fares are available. Even Corporate Plus stretches the boundaries a little. Perhaps it could have been called "Full Economy" (aka Full Y) and it would be more successful?

And maybe some some footrests, a little more padding and a few extra inches of legroom it would have been almost good enough to badge as "Business Class" and therefore be accessible to the echelon that has J travel as part of their "rights" (!) But even then this probably wouldn't work without a good alliance internationally with reciprocal benefits for higher tier travellers.

I certainly hope that DJ can make a go of the product somehow, but I guess if it just doesn't work the upside is that the PE seats can be - and are sold as and configured as Y yet still adapted to PE if required (as I imagine they might on PER/EC routes).