Does Qantas domestic scheduling have issues?

[crazydave98]

The drop in on time performance over the last year or so is a concern. I would be interested to see the on time performance figures broken down to include the MEL-SYD-BNE triangle separately. I would be surprised if the on time performance for the triangle was above 50%. Can't blame the weather or air traffic control all the time. If the fleet is old and tired and not able to cope with the heavy schedule then it is time to update.

I have been commuting back from BNE on a Friday night for over 5 months now and I have lost count of the number of times I have arrived in SYD later than scheduled. In fact in this time there are not too many times I have actually arrived even close to the scheduled arrival time. Most times I am over an hour late.

It is disappointing that most people think this is acceptable.

John you can download the full history in excel route-by-route airline-by-airline here Airline On Time Performance Monthly Reports so you can directly compare us to Qantas on any route you like. If you ask nicely I might even do it for you

I travel BNE-SYD every week (sometimes several times) and have been doing so for over 6 years. Admitedly I steer clear of Friday afternoons and Monday mornings where possible, but my experience on Virgin Blue is nothing like you are having with Qantas - that is you are saying that more often than not you don't arrive even close to scheduled time while I certainly do. Unless you are prepared to vote with your feet and wallet and take your business elsewhere why would Qantas invest in new aircraft?

No-one is saying that the situation is acceptable - not SYD airport and not Airservices ATC - we sent Airservices a bill for $500,000 to make the point - if we could legally withhold payment for services not rendered we would but the government has given them too much power without recourse for captive clients. The government of course also has the power to ease congestion at SYD by increasing the artificially capped hourly movement rate (even if only for peak hour) and to grant dispensation for breaking curfews for example when there have been severe weather problems for the day. Needless to say the government does neither and I am sure it has nothing to do with all those marginal seats around SYD and the minister's being under the flight path.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[Platy]

Which overseas maintenance provider is working on the 737-400s?

Major checks were conducted overseas on a batch of 737-400s recently (I think, Malaysia). The aircraft came back with scores of problems ranging from wrongly fitted seat belts up.

This came to light during the maintenance dispute. An internal contact within the airline has also verified.

 

[Platy]

Well, if you want to hop on earlier flights, you could book flights which are eligable to do so such as flexi savers.

You don't have to commute each week; you could just stay in Brisbane some weekends and avoid the travel and reduce costs as I know others do; if accepting a job in a remote location, these are issues that occur.


Dave

All true Dave.

But wouldn't you agree that leaving business class check in counters unattended for periods of time is non delivery of premium product? Yes, you should expect some ups and downs when travelling, but you should also be able to assume that the airline will deliver what is being paid for. :shock:

 

[Standby]

Dave.
Statistics and damn lies as the saying goes.
some observations from the OTP and flight cancellation snapshots.
Excluding the recent ALEA dispute it would appear
1/ QF had a better OTP over from about middle of 07 til the dispute ramped up in Jun08
2/Both airlines had varying degrees of flight canx with the worrying trend line upwards for both ,so is there systemic issues for both QF and VB or is it the same infratructure failing both (as happened last Friday with ATC "sickies" as they escalate their ambit 60% wage claim).
3/Dave if yr going to quote DJ vs QF numbers of flights to compare apples with apples you should only compare DJ flight numbers of competitive routes with QF mainline not yr whole network otherwise using SEP data from the link the QF group had in excess of 22,000 departures to DJ's 12K ish.You can't have yr cake and eat it too.
4/QF mainlines OTP in Sep improved after the ALEA . I dont understand how DJ can have a slightly better OTP for departures ,yet have a poorer arrival OTP...I'm sure there are reasons other than QF uses ACARs which automatically registers departures in a system vs DJ manual method.
I have done 3 flights this year from SYD on DJ and each time the aircraft has pushed back from the terminal about 10 meters and stopped for serveral minutes. The pushback = the departure time ..the real departure is sometime later.
Both carriers have gaps to address .
Dave your obviously very proud of yr airline and good on you,passion like that equals good customer service.I enjoy yr posts but at times a bit more objectivity in yr assesments would be good

 

[crazydave98]

1/ QF had a better OTP over from about middle of 07 til the dispute ramped up in Jun08

2/Both airlines had varying degrees of flight canx with the worrying trend line upwards for both ,so is there systemic issues for both QF and VB or is it the same infratructure failing both (as happened last Friday with ATC "sickies" as they escalate their ambit 60% wage claim).

3/Dave if yr going to quote DJ vs QF numbers of flights to compare apples with apples you should only compare DJ flight numbers of competitive routes with QF mainline not yr whole network otherwise using SEP data from the link the QF group had in excess of 22,000 departures to DJ's 12K ish.You can't have yr cake and eat it too.

4/QF mainlines OTP in Sep improved after the ALEA . I dont understand how DJ can have a slightly better OTP for departures ,yet have a poorer arrival OTP...I'm sure there are reasons other than QF uses ACARs which automatically registers departures in a system vs DJ manual method.
I have done 3 flights this year from SYD on DJ and each time the aircraft has pushed back from the terminal about 10 meters and stopped for serveral minutes. The pushback = the departure time ..the real departure is sometime later.
Both carriers have gaps to address

1. taking the numbers June 07 to May 08 - a full year excluding ALEA action (if you believe Qantas who are trying to blame anyone except themselves), then we still have better average cancellations rates and OTP. As per my earlier post, staff relations is something Qantas has to manage so I don't see why the ALEA dispute should be used as a "get out of jail free" card anyway.

2. see my previous post replying to questions by Evan

3. I was just trying to give a sense of scale - it's not as though Virgin Blue is operating only a handful of flights like Tiger. As you point out we also operate to a number of ports that Qantas mainline does not (we compete against Link and JQ too), so you would actually expect a far-flung network to be harder to manage - less options for recovery in disrupt situations yet we still do better.

4. after we push back we have to disengage the powerpush units and drive them away from the aircraft (to the rear) during which the engines have to be kept at idle and pilots do the taxi checklist. I believe (but could be wront) that Qantas still use tugs so they drive back towards the terminal and would hypothesise they clear the area more quickly. My understanding is that Qantas gets on the gas when they are behind to make up time, while we prefer to make up time on the ground with faster turns.

No-one said we don't have gaps to address - just that Qantas has bigger gaps.

 

[Dave Noble]

All true Dave.

But wouldn't you agree that leaving business class check in counters unattended for periods of time is non delivery of premium product? Yes, you should expect some ups and downs when travelling, but you should also be able to assume that the airline will deliver what is being paid for. :shock:

leaving it unattended would be a failing, but tbh, on a 2 night trip I would expect to be able to avoid having to check anything in anyway

I would also book flexible tickets for inbound trips in order to be able to get on earlier flights; if not prepared to pay the fare for that , then no reason to expect to be able to hop on earlier flights and in fact, would expect them to refuse it otherwise why would people pay the premium prices

If the Qf service is that unrealiable, then there are other options

Dave

 

[oz_mark]

I must be asking for too much even when I get to the airport early and ask for a seat on an earlier flight only to be refused because of cheap ticket conditions but then my scheduled flight is delayed. The airlines want everything their way.

You do of course realise that if you do change to the early flight, it will end up leaving later than your originally scheduled flight!

 

[Platy]

leaving it unattended would be a failing, but tbh, on a 2 night trip I would expect to be able to avoid having to check anything in anyway

I would also book flexible tickets for inbound trips in order to be able to get on earlier flights; if not prepared to pay the fare for that , then no reason to expect to be able to hop on earlier flights and in fact, would expect them to refuse it otherwise why would people pay the premium prices

If the Qf service is that unrealiable, then there are other options

Dave

Absolutely spot on, Dave!

 

[crazydave98]

The drop in on time performance over the last year or so is a concern. I would be interested to see the on time performance figures broken down to include the MEL-SYD-BNE triangle separately. I would be surprised if the on time performance for the triangle was above 50%. Can't blame the weather or air traffic control all the time. If the fleet is old and tired and not able to cope with the heavy schedule then it is time to update.

OK, the summary for SYD-MEL-BNE routes is that since records began in November 2003, Qantas has averaged 2.43% cancellations against Virgin Blue 1.88% (that is you were 29% more likely to suffer a cancellation by Qantas than if travelling by Virgin Blue). The OTP departure stats over the same period were 84.70% (QF) and 86.51% (DJ).

The trend is not good, just eyeballing it. Prior to March 2004 the average cancellation rate (for sum of both airlines) looks to be less than 1%, while until April 2007 it averaged between 1 and 2%, but then it averaged 2-3% for the rest of 2007 and for 2008 upwards of 3%.

OTP looks fairly constant from November 2003 until Jun07 after which it took a dive. Qantas hit 50s and 60s percent for some of the triangle routes in the period June-August 08, but Virgin Blue also hit historic lows in the 70s at the same time, suggesting that Qantas can't blame ALEA for all its problems - the ATC, weather and SYD issues as per my earlier post hit both airlines.

Happy to email the excel file with pivot table to anyone who would like to browse/verify - just PM me. File is 1.2MB so has to be emailed.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[Evan]

Dave.
Statistics and damn lies as the saying goes.
<..>
Dave your obviously very proud of yr airline and good on you,passion like that equals good customer service.I enjoy yr posts but at times a bit more objectivity in yr assesments would be good

Actually i think CrazyDave is very upfront for who he works for and more than welcome him to post anything like the graphs he did, Just about anybody can make any statistics look better for one reason or another but you can always check for yourself the real facts and this being a DJ presentation will most likly be made to look good for them, as they say 25% better OTP, well that sounds like a lot, but then look at the figures and relaise its not that different, only 0.1 or 0.2% total for example.

The explanation about the pushback is interesting and good to hear from an insider rather than us all speculating.

Oh well lets hope with QF decreasing utilisation on there A/C we may see some improvment, that is if the main reasons are maintinance related, if its ATC for example we may not see any change.

E

 

[Evan]

OK, the summary for SYD-MEL-BNE routes is that since records began in November 2003, Qantas has averaged 2.43% cancellations against Virgin Blue 1.88% (that is you were 29% more likely to suffer a cancellation by Qantas than if travelling by Virgin Blue). The OTP departure stats over the same period were 84.70% (QF) and 86.51% (DJ).
<..>cheers

CrazyDave98

What we will never know is how much on some routes does that affect passangers, sometimes its a 30 minute bump to the next flight, i have not flown DJ or QF much in the last 2 years say MEL-SYD but i know if i got bumped by QF i still may have been home sooner than if i was on DJ due to a couple of years ago atleast there being more flights by QF. (I think this has changed now a bit)

E

 

[crazydave98]

What we will never know is how much on some routes does that affect passangers, sometimes its a 30 minute bump to the next flight, i have not flown DJ or QF much in the last 2 years say MEL-SYD but i know if i got bumped by QF i still may have been home sooner than if i was on DJ due to a couple of years ago at least there being more flights by QF. (I think this has changed now a bit)

Fair point. Qantas still has a few more frequencies a day but we are closing that gap. Taking August 2008, the following numbers of return services were scheduled:

SYD-MEL DJ 870 QF 977 (+12%)
SYD-BNE DJ 609 QF 696 (+14%)
BNE-MEL DJ 357 QF 435 (+21%)

(Actually I should have compared sectors flown since QF cancelled a ton of flights ). Most of the additional QF frequencies on SYD-MEL and SYD-BNE are in the middle of the day where we are mostly hourly and QF is mostly every half hour. At peak hours both airlines are every 15 or 30 minutes although QF still has a few more services.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[anat0l]

Just for kicks (and because I need to develop the skills anyway), I did a statistical analysis on the cancellation figures from 2006-2008, using the master file acquired from the BITRE site. The analysis was performed on the raw figures on a sector-by-sector basis (rather than the rolled numbers as the averages per month).

Comparing QF (only QF mainline, doesn't include QF-link) v DJ, QF did cancel more flights than DJ on average, but the difference in averages is not significant. If QF+JQ v DJ was compared, then the difference starts to become more significant, but even then it isn't very pronounced. In fact, with the QF+JQ v DJ 2006-2008 dataset, QF+JQ actually have a lower rate of cancellations compared to DJ.

One clear difference though is the variability in each of the data sets. The QF and QF+JQ data is more variable than that of the DJ data.

Having said that, of course the analysis is a bit rough (due to the analysis methodology and underlying assumptions), but it is a little better than just saying "since our average is 25% better than your average that is that". I haven't tried bringing in the other year's data sets, let alone factoring in QF-link into the QF set and Regional Express into DJ set.

It doesn't matter what kind of analysis is done or who is the "better" airline in these terms. Reading the master sheet there are notable examples of underperformance in terms of OTP (departures/arrivals) and cancellations from both airlines in at least the last 2-3 years. Both airlines have work to do and that is that. Coming to a conclusion that your rival needs to do more work than you or whatever is pointless; just run the airline and get on with it...and perhaps with a smile and a bit of class (no pun intended).


Interestingly enough, JohnK, the lowest OTD (on-time dep) in 2007-2008 within the SYD/MEL/BNE network was 50.4% on SYD-MEL during July 2008, with a corresponding OTA (on-time arr) of 45.8%. The bottom ten records of OTD in the SYD/MEL/BNE during 2007-2008 are scooped up all (bar one) by QF; no surprises there! Having said that, though, the monthly OTD has never been less than 50% for any of DJ, QF or JQ during any year of 2003-2008 in the SYD/MEL/BNE triangle.

Is it acceptable? Of course not. So what can you do?

• Start your own airline
• Switch to the competition
• Stop flying planes (try another mode of transport)
• Nothing (just grin and bear it)

 

[NM]

Major checks were conducted overseas on a batch of 737-400s recently (I think, Malaysia). The aircraft came back with scores of problems ranging from wrongly fitted seat belts up.

This came to light during the maintenance dispute. An internal contact within the airline has also verified.

The imperative word is "were". Qantas did have maintenance work performed in Malaysia and learned their lesson and since confirmed the use of their own MEL facility as the primary location for 737 heavy maintenance and external providers will only be used for overflow.

As far as I can tell, only one 737 actually went to Malaysia for maintenance. Qantas then shelved plans to send two more and instead slotted them into the MEL facility schedule.

These reports indicate that only one aircraft (VH-JTU) was maintained in Malaysia and since then Qantas has performed all 737 heavy maintenance in Melbourne. So it would seem this was a "batch" of one.

THE MALAYSIAN: Qantas Decides Against Servicing 737s In Malaysia
Qantas to maintain 737 planes locally | Herald Sun
JetBlog! Interactive: Qantas Won't Send Airplanes to Malaysia for Maintenance Checks
Probe of Qantas in Malaysia « Travelhouseuk’s Travel Blog
Malaysia refutes links with Qantas problems > AviationRecord.com - Latest and Breaking Aviation and Airline News > News Articles

 

[Platy]

Is it acceptable? Of course not. So what can you do?

• Start your own airline
• Switch to the competition
• Stop flying planes (try another mode of transport)
• Nothing (just grin and bear it)

...and have another (or two) Crownie in the QP!

In fact a few years ago I was severely delayed on an afternoon DJ MEL-SYD due to fog earlier in the day. A fair few beers went down, in fact we were so merry that we were even nice to Chris Corrigan who was also in the lounge...in fact the QF schedule re-balanced a couple of hours before the DJ one that particular day.

 

[Platy]

The imperative word is "were". Qantas did have maintenance work performed in Malaysia and learned their lesson and since confirmed the use of their own MEL facility as the primary location for 737 heavy maintenance and external providers will only be used for overflow.

As far as I can tell, only one 737 actually went to Malaysia for maintenance. Qantas then shelved plans to send two more and instead slotted them into the MEL facility schedule.

These reports indicate that only one aircraft (VH-JTU) was maintained in Malaysia and since then Qantas has performed all 737 heavy maintenance in Melbourne. So it would seem this was a "batch" of one.

THE MALAYSIAN: Qantas Decides Against Servicing 737s In Malaysia
Qantas to maintain 737 planes locally | Herald Sun
JetBlog! Interactive: Qantas Won't Send Airplanes to Malaysia for Maintenance Checks
Probe of Qantas in Malaysia « Travelhouseuk’s Travel Blog
Malaysia refutes links with Qantas problems > AviationRecord.com - Latest and Breaking Aviation and Airline News > News Articles

Thanks for the additional info, NM!

 

[JohnK]

You do of course realise that if you do change to the early flight, it will end up leaving later than your originally scheduled flight!

Don't laugh that happened to me recently.

leaving it unattended would be a failing, but tbh, on a 2 night trip I would expect to be able to avoid having to check anything in anyway

Irrelevant point. I have to check in my luggage. I live in a 1-bedroom studio in a hotel building. There are no adequate facilities, or time, for me to do washing, hanging up and ironing. I bring all my clothes with me when I go to BNE on Sunday and I bring back them back with me home to SYD on Friday.

I would also book flexible tickets for inbound trips in order to be able to get on earlier flights; if not prepared to pay the fare for that , then no reason to expect to be able to hop on earlier flights and in fact, would expect them to refuse it otherwise why would people pay the premium prices

Why book flexible tickets? If there are delays it is likely to affect most flights and there is no guarantee that the flight I am on does not get cancelled anyway. I don't get a chance to get to the airport early all the time so Qantas should allow me the luxury to swap to an earlier flight ocassionally as they have continually stuffed me around more times than I care to remember.

I don't think I am being unreasonable in expecting to arrive at my destination on time. In 5 months Qantas has managed to get me home to SYD within 30 minutes of scheduled arrival twice. The other 10-14 times I have arrived somewhere between 45 minutes and 2 hours late. And using the excuse it is Friday night is not a good enough excuse. The airfare I have paid is irrelevant and Qantas has failed to deliver. Simple.

If the Qf service is that unrealiable, then there are other options

There is only one other option and at the moment that is not a feasible option.

No problem. According to you and most others I should accept all the blame for what is happening to me and the airlines do not need to accept any responsibility for their failure to deliver. And no point in continuing this discussion further....

 

[Platy]

According to you and most others I should accept all the blame for what is happening to me and the airlines do not need to accept any responsibility for their failure to deliver. And no point in continuing this discussion further....

Actually, I have great sympathy for your predicament having previously commuted back to CNS from SYD on numerous Friday evenings. That flight virtually never left on time, was consistently 45-60 minutes late. Although I now rarely take that flight, that trend continues judging by the arrival times of a regular Friday night visitor from SYD.

I don't think that the airline's schedules and systems can cope intrinsically with the Friday night loadings, volumes of people, etc. Not having check in counters manned properly is adding insult to injury, likewise inadequate food in the QPs (they have an allocation and when that's eaten, sorry no more food folks!).

Of course there are issues with weather and air traffic etc, but they are part of the course and it doesn't take a genius with the right traffic management models to determine a reasonable level of slack in the system to cover the majority of situations.

The bottom line is that QF is managed within very tight limits for cost saving and there is no doubt service levels are getting worse beacuse of the fanatical slash and burn approach of management and the folk that suffer most are the customers.

The under staffing of check in at BNE leading to customers missing their flights is an extraordinary failing. Some fool was trying to save cash by making the system ever leaner until it passed breaking point.

Yes, there is an alternative and many have made the switch - I suspect in many cases QF is driving business away rather than DJ actively winning it. Not everyone has the choice, though.

 

[anat0l]

I don't think I am being unreasonable in expecting to arrive at my destination on time. In 5 months Qantas has managed to get me home to SYD within 30 minutes of scheduled arrival twice. The other 10-14 times I have arrived somewhere between 45 minutes and 2 hours late. And using the excuse it is Friday night is not a good enough excuse. The airfare I have paid is irrelevant and Qantas has failed to deliver. Simple.

There is only one other option and at the moment that is not a feasible option.

No problem. According to you and most others I should accept all the blame for what is happening to me and the airlines do not need to accept any responsibility for their failure to deliver. And no point in continuing this discussion further....

No one is saying you should accept all - if any - of the blame for what is happening.

Airlines do need to analyse these anomalies and accept some if not total responsibility for them.

• No one believes that the situation is ideal - in fact it is far from ideal.
• It's pointless comparing our service in Australia to other countries, e.g. USA, whether it be (with appropriate scaling) better or worse; it doesn't help anyone! (Yay - we can feel good about ourselves compared to XYZ country's system, but I still need to get to SYD and my flight is 2 hours delayed!)
• It's pointless comparing service in airlines (or specific airlines, like QF) against the quality of service in non-aviation sectors, e.g. banks, telecommunication companies, insurance agencies, etc.
• It's nowhere near ideal to simply accept things the way they are, however having said that the biggest difference between someone who believes that change is required and not is apathy (and frankly I am guilty of that too).

Short of the set of options I proposed (or perhaps, dare I suggest it, a class action suit against airlines for failure to deliver on contract), what else can one do?

 

[anat0l]

I don't think that the airline's schedules and systems can cope intrinsically with the Friday night loadings, volumes of people, etc. Not having check in counters manned properly is adding insult to injury, likewise inadequate food in the QPs (they have an allocation and when that's eaten, sorry no more food folks!).

Food? I reckon. I was in ADL QP the other day waiting to go home. Not say the busiest lounge in AU, but the hot food still disappeared within 30 seconds of being served. I had to "camp" near the food line to wait for the hot food in order to have any chance of getting some. Some people were obviously ravenous and were taking platefuls of hot food at a time. Crazy.

The under staffing of check in at BNE leading to customers missing their flights is an extraordinary failing. Some fool was trying to save cash by making the system ever leaner until it passed breaking point.

I have to admit BNE D QF is a joke, only possibly exceeded by PER D QF.

Yes, there is an alternative and many have made the switch - I suspect in many cases QF is driving business away rather than DJ actively winning it.

QF don't exactly have the best profile at the moment. Not all of it is their fault per se, but it's all enough to close lots of doors for the airline. But life goes on.

Not everyone has choice, though.

Including you, Platy? (viz. would like to hear your experiences...)