Downgraded without notification - what are my options?

[MEL_Traveller]

This just happened to Mrs_O and I. We had checked in online for BNE-PER having booked J reward seats ages ago. Seats were confirmed as 3A & 3C. When we got to the baggage drop kiosk, the computer beeped and told us to go and see an agent.

Got told we were being downgraded for travelling staff. Whilst I understand that, I wasn't happy since we travelling J as part of a wedding anniversary trip. We got handed off to another agent who just kept saying "no" to literally every request we had to mitigate the change and lied to us about how we were selected for the downgrade, claiming the computer randomly selects passengers, where as I knew that the booking class and QF status would have come into it and a random selection process would probably not have picked both of us. We now asked to see a manager who, whilst continuing to refuse anything other than the offered seats (Row 8 and middle seat blocked), did at least be honest about why we were selected.

Mitigation that I asked for was Row 4 seating, J F&B. Row 4 was denied due to a family of 4 travelling together and the J F&B was too hard. The latter is just a crock of dog doo since they serve dietary meals to pax on every flight so it would not have been that hard.

Row 4 had 5 pax in it so Mr 4E could have 8A/B/C to himself whilst we had 4E and 4F or Mrs 4D could have been moved to 5C and Mr 5C and Mr 4E moved to 8A & 8C.

Rows 5, 6, 7 & 8 all had an empty B seat so there were definitely ways to treated the situation better. One would think that J pax would out rank Y pax, regardless of status.

On the flip side, the CSM on board really turned things around for us after I gone up to the J toilet because the food trolley was blocking the aisle to the back (plus I was still annoyed and felt as though I could use the J toilet - I know, I know, not cool). When I came out of the toilet she asked me what had gone wrong, sympathised, apologised (even though the decision was nothing to do with her) and then proceeded to bring us J wine, gave us a full bottle when we disembarked and credited 10,000 FF points to my account. The empathy that she showed was really all it took to get us back on side which just reinforces the other stories about QF's general lack of service recovery.

The airport staff told us that we would get a refund of points and $$ to reflect the downgrade although that hasn't happned yet but it is only 5 days since the flights. I'm not sure how long I should wait before chasing customer services - any advice here?

The 10,000 points arranged by the CSM were credited pretty much immediately from what I can tell.

I would follow it up straight away.

From reading other posts the refund may be automatic, or may not. No harm in sending an email, just in case.

 

[Pushka]

We all understand that Qantas have to downgrade us but at least give us a warning when it happens, short flights are less of a problem but sometimes you don’t eat in the lounge and get something on board until you are about to board.
There should be an automatic process of refund of points that should happen automatically I guess Qantas could write a procedure for it but it seems they don’t care.
It wastes our time and the call centre staff.
Maybe a point to bring up with Qantas when AFF admin talk to Qantas.

And it seems to be happening more frequently now with the changes to crew pay conditions.

 

[Bundy Bear]

And it seems to be happening more frequently now with the changes to crew pay conditions.

Part of it could be the frequent flyer side ramping up offers of upgrades but the operation side hasn’t updated their procedures, business cabins now seem to be full most flights, in the past business was usually had spare seats, Qantas in past often left business seats free.

 

[RichardMEL]

Unpopular opinion but I wouldn't automatically accuse the ground agent of lying regarding how the downgraded pax were selection - I'd go for ignorance first and foremost. Does it help? No.

Also asking ground staff to somehow ensure inflight service (ie J wine or F&B in Y) - while I understand the point - seems a bit of a stretch imo. That is up to CSMs (as you luckily found out whuch was great effort by that CSM to make right as best they could which is a real credit).

Also all the seat shuffles suggested.. QF had already disrupted two pax.. they wouldn't want to be shifting around more pax in rows 4 and 5 imo. I mean imagine the AFF thread "Selected row 4 and moved back without notice for a couple to sit together" - I mean then you potentially piss off more people.

I have no problem with asking the question but I can see the push back.

I'm sorry your, or part of your anniversary trip was messed up by this. So coughpy at least the CSM really came through.

Hopefully the rest of the trip is kuch better and happy anniversary!

 

[SydneySwan]

There should be an automatic process of refund of points that should happen automatically I guess Qantas could write a procedure for it but it seems they don’t care.

I have bolded the relevant words. Things yet to change under VH.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Unpopular opinion but I wouldn't automatically accuse the ground agent of lying regarding how the downgraded pax were selection - I'd go for ignorance first and foremost. Does it help? No.

Also asking ground staff to somehow ensure inflight service (ie J wine or F&B in Y) - while I understand the point - seems a bit of a stretch imo. That is up to CSMs (as you luckily found out whuch was great effort by that CSM to make right as best they could which is a real credit).

Also all the seat shuffles suggested.. QF had already disrupted two pax.. they wouldn't want to be shifting around more pax in rows 4 and 5 imo. I mean imagine the AFF thread "Selected row 4 and moved back without notice for a couple to sit together" - I mean then you potentially piss off more people.

I have no problem with asking the question but I can see the push back.

I'm sorry your, or part of your anniversary trip was messed up by this. So coughpy at least the CSM really came through.

Hopefully the rest of the trip is kuch better and happy anniversary!

Agree on the inflight service issue.

The flying crew would also be entitled to food and beverage in the air although I believe as staff they don't get asked their choice of meal until the rest of the cabin has made their choice? Given the business class cabin is not overcatered then it would mean having to serve economy meals in the front cabin.

What might have been possible was a note to the CSM saying the passengers in row 8 had been downgraded. at least would have allowed the crew to do some service recovery if they had the means to do so.

 

[muppet]

I honestly don’t understand this staff bumping paying pax from the premium cabin approach - quite bizarre for any business in hospitality.

Also, Qantas conditions of carriage say they take volunteers for overbooking - i’ve never seen that happen on Qantas. In the USA some people could pay their mortgage based on the downgrade and voluntary offload cash they get offered.

 

[RichardMEL]

I honestly don’t understand this staff bumping paying pax from the premium cabin approach - quite bizarre for any business in hospitality.

Part of the pilot EBA. AA does this too. A nightmare for the Customer Service folks imo.

Also, Qantas conditions of carriage say they take volunteers for overbooking - i’ve never seen that happen on Qantas. In the USA some people could pay their mortgage based on the downgrade and voluntary offload cash they get offered.

Except it is not an overbooking situation per se and QF does not behave like the US legacy carriers in this respect.

 

[Mr_Orange]

Except it is not an overbooking situation per se and QF does not behave like the US legacy carriers in this respect.

Well, I was told that the flight was over-sold by at least two of the staff in the airport that I spoke to, which was blatently not true.

 

[RichardMEL]

Well, I was told that the flight was over-sold by at least two of the staff in the airport that I spoke to, which was blatently not true.

Not to speak for them, but probably easier to express it that way - because ultimately same result - than "J was full, but we have a last minute need for these seats as these pilots must fly in J because of their contract and we have no choice but to bump you back to Y"

I mean if the flight were actually oversold (which QF dowles not tend to do iirc) then there would have not even been seats in Y for you I would think.

It's a coughpy situation absolutely and you deserve the appropriate compensation (apart from the 10k points from generous CSM) but this is about what the pilots got into their EBA and thus pushing customers out through no fault of their own (and I bet those pilots wouldn't be too happy to have bumped you either)

 

[JohnK]

Well, I was told that the flight was over-sold by at least two of the staff in the airport that I spoke to, which was blatently not true.

Well clearly Qantas management does not care.

I hope you were downgraded for staff travelling on duty not some office staff travelling on staff travel.

 

[PERLHR]

It was confirmed I. The other thread that pilots travelling on duty are required/entitled to business class. Unfortunately this sometimes means the displacement of paying pax.

This is not a case of any sort of staff 'favours'.

And that in itself shows just how poor QF are not only with their FF flyers but others
who actually contribute greatly for such pilots having a job. Personally I would drop QF in a shot. An airline that feels for some reason it is entitled to much yet remains well down the pecking order for many. I have actually been upgraded on BA the other day...why? Because positioning crew members were being popped on the flight. I was positioned up front the crew down the back.....

As for the contract entitlement ...change it!

 

[muppet]

Part of the pilot EBA. AA does this too. A nightmare for the Customer Service folks imo.

Except it is not an overbooking situation per se and QF does not behave like the US legacy carriers in this respect.

AA does it but the impact is usually on freebie upgrades not fare paying pax.

The solution is simple, don’t upgrade pax until departure. Filling the cabin the day before with bid or point upgrades just makes it so hard when things like this occur or IRROPS or even full fare paying J pax who might want to fly home earlier ….

 

[Aussie_flyer]

The airport staff told us that we would get a refund of points and $$ to reflect the downgrade although that hasn't happened yet but it is only 5 days since the flights. I'm not sure how long I should wait before chasing customer services - any advice here?

The 10,000 points arranged by the CSM were credited pretty much immediately from what I can tell.

Good luck getting the points. I've spent this whole month trying to get a refund of points for an upgrade where the flight was subsequently cancelled and I was rebooked to later flight in economy. Utterly hopeless for something that should be so simple

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And that in itself shows just how poor QF are not only with their FF flyers but others
who actually contribute greatly for such pilots having a job. Personally I would drop QF in a shot. An airline that feels for some reason it is entitled to much yet remains well down the pecking order for many. I have actually been upgraded on BA the other day...why? Because positioning crew members were being popped on the flight. I was positioned up front the crew down the back.....

As for the contract entitlement ...change it!

Were they pilots flying to duty? Cabin crew don't get business class unless seats are available I believe.

I support pilots getting J class if it aides their later flying.

 

[TheInsider]

I hope you were downgraded for staff travelling on duty not some office staff travelling on staff travel.

That's not how the program works, as it has been said before.
Leisure staff travellers do not bump any commercial fare.
Corporate staff do not bump any commercial fare.
Mainline pilots are the only ones who are entitled to J class whilst on duty travel.

 

[RichardMEL]

Well clearly Qantas management does not care.

They may or may not. In this case they've been put over the barrel by the demands of the EBA. Now, most legacy carriers have similiar conditions for pilots deadheading or commuting to work - so it's hardly unique to QF.

I hope you were downgraded for staff travelling on duty not some office staff travelling on staff travel.

That is the policy. Non tech crew staff cannot bump commercial pax. On company business they would fly in Y at least, but on leisure they all go standby (ie NRSA) basis.

In this case it's likely this was a last minute need to crew a flight. Usually the crews flying to work are scheduled in advance so that doesn't affect revenue pax and probably just upgrades.

 

[equus]

We got handed off to another agent who just kept saying "no" to literally every request we had to mitigate the change

Did you ask to be accommodated in 'J on an alternative flight? The Qantas conditions of carriage make the choice of travelling in the lower class,, or being accommodated in the original class on a reasonably available alternative Qantas flight the option of the customer.

 

[Mr_Orange]

Did you ask to be accommodated in 'J on an alternative flight? The Qantas conditions of carriage make the choice of travelling in the lower class,, or being accommodated in the original class on a reasonably available alternative Qantas flight the option of the customer.

Sort of..... 1 seat was available on the later flight which arrived in PER around midnight. Given that our outbound the next morning was 05:10, that didn't appeal and there was no guarantee of a second seat materialising.

 

[RooFlyer]

Given that this is a non-negotiable requirement (tech crew in J, sometimes at late notice), and its done knowing that paying pax will be bumped if necessary, there should be an easily implementable, automatic compensation notified to the pax at the gate, or service desk of, say $500 or 50,000 points (arbitrary figures for domestic) and then paid. Qantas has to downgrade, its a special bumping case, pax will be disappointed, just do it automatically.

Unfortunately, we all know Qantas would never do anything like that.