Economy seat size

[JohnK]

No, but neither is an airline website going to include this information.

There is one way of finding out for sure. Try it for yourself.

24G on an A332 has much more legroom than 23B/23J on an A333.

 

[trooper]

It was mentioned upthread that most folks dont do any research.....they just buy the cheapest fares they can find....

THEN they complain about everything from seat width and pitch to baggage allowances to coughpy IFE..... and sometimes even demand regulatory intervention (with an unspoken condition that wider seats and more pitch should NOT cost any more)

Given so many people use PRICE as the only determinant, is it any surprise airlines outfit their aircraft with the max number of seats...allowing the cheapest possible fares?

 

[Tortuga]

Does anyone know what the regulation states regarding minimum seat size? How far are long haul seats from approaching the limit - they keep getting smaller.

 

[bismarck]

Does anyone know what the regulation states regarding minimum seat size? How far are long haul seats from approaching the limit - they keep getting smaller.

Don't think there is a minimum size, more a timeframe in which the entire plane needs to be evacuated.

 

[mannej]

Maybe what would be good is not necessarily a enforced standard, but a restriction on the classification of 'Economy'. If seats smaller then 17.5 inches width and/or 32 inches pitch for flights over 5 hours, the airlines should be forced to advertise the seats as 'Cramped Economy' and not 'Economy'.

More information like this should be provided, so that people can compare more easily between carriers.

FWIW a few senators (congress men)? In the US have tried to push for this but haven't got much traction.

 

[Tortuga]

Don't think there is a minimum size, more a timeframe in which the entire plane needs to be evacuated.

I think they would have a better chance evacuating a plane with more seat width and less seats squashed into the body of the aircraft. I don't accept that the seating situation cannot be improved significantly in economy without all airlines suddenly going bankrupt. I understand there are a lot of you that view this as whining and 'don't like it don't fly' or 'pay for business' but that attitude is not the right approach - there needs to be a balance where the airlines remain profitable and you don't have thousands of people in discomfort for hours on end. Stop with the wifi upgrades and start with seating improvements.

 

[Tortuga]

FWIW a few senators (congress men)? In the US have tried to push for this but haven't got much traction.

No doubt the airline lobbyists will win that fight - of course the majority in congress all fly business class and don't have to deal with the seating issue. They are also likely in the pockets of the airline industry.

 

[JohnK]

I think they would have a better chance evacuating a plane with more seat width and less seats squashed into the body of the aircraft. I don't accept that the seating situation cannot be improved significantly in economy without all airlines suddenly going bankrupt. I understand there are a lot of you that view this as whining and 'don't like it don't fly' or 'pay for business' but that attitude is not the right approach - there needs to be a balance where the airlines remain profitable and you don't have thousands of people in discomfort for hours on end. Stop with the wifi upgrades and start with seating improvements.

FWIW I agree with you and would be prepared for pay 10% more for airfares with additional seat witdth and seat pitch. Not likely to happen though as airlines would prefer to cram them in as much as possible.

 

[marki]

FWIW I agree with you and would be prepared for pay 10% more for airfares with additional seat witdth and seat pitch. Not likely to happen though as airlines would prefer to cram them in as much as possible.

FWIW I agree to. Also like being warned about cramped economy!

 

[Denali]

THEN they complain about everything .......

Reminds me of a friend of ours that was very loud about their $299 flights to Japan and by memory, call his nearest and dearest online friends "suckers", then blew up his Facebook page complaining about having to pay for a beer and blanket and delays and "never again!".

But overwhelmingly the world agrees people are getting bigger but the seat width smaller - doesnt make any sense to me.

Of course, Im spoilt. I look at the 22" J seats and think, Really? That's the best you can offer, SQ gives me 35" seats". That's what leaving Y does to you, makes you soft and spoilt.

BTW. Anyone remember an old Tom Hanks movie and he was an ad executive that had to come up with an airline ad and you saw his team crammed into a toilet cubicle, to get themselves into the pax state of mind? Very funny.

 

[medhead]

FWIW I agree with you and would be prepared for pay 10% more for airfares with additional seat witdth and seat pitch. Not likely to happen though as airlines would prefer to cram them in as much as possible.

Lets consider a Qantas 737. Say they increased the seat width such that the Y config was 3-2, that would require a 16% increase in fare.

 

[Altair]

There are quite a few airlines flying to/from Australia and New Zealand to various destinations around the world that have more generous economy seating that can also be cheaper than QF/NZ. KE and OZ offer good pitch and seat width, but you need to accept there are certain negatives to travel with them eg. overnight may be required, perceived safety levels may not be as high as QF/VA. Aircraft type also plays into it, I would prefer a QF A380 or VA 777 over a QF A330 or likely 787. I will not travel in economy on a 10 across 777 or 9 across 787.
You do need to do research rather than say airlines should do something or go to a travel agent and just choose the lowest price ticket.

 

[Quickstatus]

Airlines have reduced both seat pitch and seat width in spite of body size enlarging. However they have also significantly reduced prices much more on a price per sq inch basis. Air travel used to be the domain of the rich but now it is commoditised and anyone can travel in an airplane.

PE seems to be priced at 1.5-3.0x Y. I wonder though what product the airlines can up with at a price point of 1.1-1.5x. Currently with a top-up passengers are limited to exit row/bulkhead selection and even then its not guaranteed.

DL Comfort+ could be a model but it only has more legroom (and free booze and earlier boarding) rather than more room laterally.

Airlines will always try to package their product to make it more attractive so as to achieve greater pricing power. Just like car manufacturers. I hate it when the leather seat option has to come with LED headlights and some other accessory when all I want is the leather seats.

In the meantime comfort seat is probably the way to go if cant afford PE

I think it is great that many people can fly. It makes the world a lot smaller. Some say the universal languages are music and food. They should put travel in there as the great enabler.

 

[JohnK]

Lets consider a Qantas 737. Say they increased the seat width such that the Y config was 3-2, that would require a 16% increase in fare.

That would be fine. And from memory that was the original configuration?

And a 10 across 747/A380/777 would increase 11% or a 9 across A330/787 would increase 12%? Happy to pay the extra amount on full service carriers. LCCs can continue their current practice of cheaper airfares.

 

[Milefest]

Lets consider a Qantas 737. Say they increased the seat width such that the Y config was 3-2, that would require a 16% increase in fare.

That's a pretty significant increase. That number doesn't include increased seat pitch either, along with the millions it will cost to refit every plane.

I'm not sure many people's loyalty and comfort are worth that much.

 

[medhead]

That's a pretty significant increase. That number doesn't include increased seat pitch either, along with the millions it will cost to refit every plane.

I'm not sure many people's loyalty and comfort are worth that much.

It wasn't a business proposal. It was a gross comparison of costs assuming all other things are equal.

A theme of recent posts seems to be that it is up to the individual to determine the cost they're prepared to pay for their comfort and loyalty. I was proposing a number for the potential cost.

 

[Quickstatus]

Lets consider a Qantas 737. Say they increased the seat width such that the Y config was 3-2, that would require a 16% increase in fare.

Maybe, maybe not

The economic algorithm will have more than just this variable.
On the positive side - slightly less fuel, slightly less wear and tear, quicker boarding times possibly more time in the air if timetables are rejigged.
On the negative side - do landing and other airport fees have a per plane component - resulting in higher cost per passenger. more or larger airplanes are required to fly the same number of passengers around leading to higher costs from operating more or bigger aircraft, more airport slots are required so further cost to airline. If no slots are available then bigger aircraft required.

etc etc etc

On the whole I can superficially see why on one level a j seat costs sometimes 4-5 times a whY seat.
Is it true that a J passenger subsides the Y passenger?

 

[medhead]

Maybe, maybe not

The economic algorithm will have more than just this variable.
On the positive side - slightly less fuel, slightly less wear and tear, quicker boarding times possibly more time in the air if timetables are rejigged.
On the negative side - do landing and other airport fees have a per plane component - resulting in higher cost per passenger. more or larger airplanes are required to fly the same number of passengers around leading to higher costs from operating more or bigger aircraft, more airport slots are required so further cost to airline. If no slots are available then bigger aircraft required.

etc etc etc

On the whole I can superficially see why on one level a j seat costs sometimes 4-5 times a whY seat.
Is it true that a J passenger subsides the Y passenger?

It was on the basis of all other things being equal. But lets call it 20% more.

I don't believe any fare class subsidises another class of travel. Limiting myself to 737s as that is 93.42% of my travel, on my preferred route, with Qantas (and all other things being equal). There are 12 J seats @$800 each = $9600, and there are 150 Y seats, or maybe 156 on new config, with a cheapest normal price of $170. If we assume that is average fare then $25500 as a minimum. A possible maximum for each cabin class might be about $15000 (J) and $30000 (Y). I reckon a full Y cabin brings in about double the revenue of a full J cabin over all.

On that it might be argued that Y subsidises J. But my considered view is that both cabins need to be full to make a flight profitable.

 

[sinophile888]

I would recommend considering a third seat.

Late last year, my +1 and I wanted to travel PER -> HKG -> PER with a stopover along the way. I was unwell during 2014 and so hadn’t flown for some time. We first took a trial trip to Melbourne which went well.

So we then booked 3 Y seats with SQ through our TA. As 3 of the four flights were 3 – 4 – 3 seating, the arrangement worked particularly well. I had my preferred window seat and my +1 had the aisle seat. For the fourth flight with 2 – 4 – 2 seating, I had the window seat with a spare seat next to me and my +1 had his favoured aisle seat but in the middle block.

Three of the four flights were fully booked so we were very pleased with the decision we made to book the extra seat. Some passengers on our flights commented to us that we were so lucky to have a spare seat between us. We politely informed them that we had paid for the pleasure.

The fares were about $800 each for us and $600 for the third seat.

The third seat allocation was on the boarding pass of my +1.

 

[straitman]

I'll try a third time to respond to this as I've had computer problems.

At 186cm and with very broad shoulders the OP is not a small person. I'd even go so far as to say they are a big person and I'd be very interested to see their upper to lower body lengths ratio as this makes a huge difference.

The size of airline seats is, as much as anything else, driven by the passenger market. The constant drive to get cheaper and cheaper airfares is how/why we have all the LCC out there and their no frills approach. The airlines that have higher prices invariably go by the wayside. Simply have a look at the US market and see the customer driven changes of the last few years and see which airlines are (not many) and which airlines are not (most) profitable.

Take the example of the B777 mentioned in post #7. At 10 seats across at $200 a seat the price needs to rise by 10% to $220 if there are 9 seats across. If a customer goes to book and sees airline A selling seats at $200 and airline B selling seats at $220, then which is he going to pick? IF he even considers it (and most don't) he will think it's only 2in and for a 2hrs so I can manage that.

How do you get around this? Maybe buy a PE ticket but they are relatively expensive so maybe that doesn't help. IMHO the real pressure should be to get PE seats priced a little lower though good luck with this as they are priced at what the market will stand.

Or you can always do what I do as I have decided that I will not fly LONG haul in economy. I would rather not go :!: So what is my limit before I make this call :?: To be perfectly honest I think it is around 6 hrs but I guess it will vary a little with circumstances.

If you have a look at airline profitability then you will see that running an airline is one of the lowest returns (if any) out there and why anyone would do it I don't know. As they say in Aviation "The best way to get a small fortune in Aviation is to start with a large one"