Emirates taking liberties with medical assistance?

[rechoboam]

There is benefit to being called “Mr” as my surgical colleagues occasionally remind me.

I don’t pay much attention to what legal liabilities await in judgement of my medical assistance. If I can help, I’ll help.

But as my bookings are always Mr, no one will know except for QF who despite the Mr pronoun has me in the iPad as a doctor.

Most Australian medical professional indemnity will cover Good Samaritan acts internationally.

They won’t spring you out of a Dubai jail if you do CPR on an Emir who subsequently dies though. If we’re talking about Western countries I wouldn’t be worried in the slightest - there’s medical indemnity, there’s the fact that common law countries require negligence for a successful lawsuit, there’s Good Samaritan laws themselves especially in the US and the bar is pretty high for proving negligence when you are 30k feet up without much useful equipment or diagnostics. The problem is when you are dragged into some horrendous minefield in some country that doesn’t function the way ours does.

 

[kpc]

But what you did was appropriate (including stepping aside). The role of a medical bystander is to provide basic life support, plus use of an AED if available. If nothing else, the ambos have the IVs, the fluid, the airway equipment and the monitors and are very adequately trained. It’s not appropriate for anyone to try and manage the patient over their heads; I know more about airway management and have more advanced skills than a typical paramedic (and I teach them) but I’d still leave it to them. In the absence of any equipment the role of a doctor on a plane or a food court is basically highly skilled first aid and basic life support as you provided on that occasion.

I was very happy to step aside and go back to my lunch when the ambos arrived....all I wanted to do was to tell them what had happened, what I did and what was the patient' s response...and they didn't even want to hear that...so be it...they will rush said patient to hospital probably to be admitted under my care...with a note no history surrounding event was available ! Ps won't even mention that they took ages to come because they went to the wrong food court first! Anyway, moral of story is not to listen to your mum!

 

[Quickstatus]

The legal risk is IMO overblown.
I dont recall first aiders being jailed in Dubai or France or other places where the Napoleonic code has roots. AFAIK no one got prosecuted for giving first aid to any of the Terrorist attacks in France in recent times eg C.Hebdo.
The French legalese is not necessarily to punish negligence by a first aider but to punish those who do not execute their Duty to rescue. That no one is immune from the Code/Law is i think where their starting point is.

But coming back to the original post. The decision should be a voluntary one, and what you choose to divulge to cabin crew about medical skills should be discretionary. Not a lot can be done midair anyway and the airlines have Ground based medical assistance channels that they partner with to help Captains make decisions about diverting. They tend to pay more credence to these services than a self proclaimed Dr on board.

 

[kelvedon]

Mines on barnacles...

I’ve heard of barnacles on mines, but never the other way round.

 

[suze2000]

Typical of the new breed of arrogant and delusional nurses who think they have the same skills and qualifications as a doctor. The phenomenon is a real cancer on the health system.

Should try being in allied health and trying to tell them they are doing something wrong.

 

[Quickstatus]

Should try being in allied health and trying to tell them they are doing something wrong.

Try being a female Dr when the patients (male and female) think you are a nurse

 

[suze2000]

Try being a female Dr when the patients (male and female) think you are a nurse

I thought the numbers coming through now are pretty much equal. When are people going to get that stuff out of their heads?

 

[Daver6]

I thought the numbers coming through now are pretty much equal. When are people going to get that stuff out of their heads?

Probably lack of equiality in nursing is more the issue How many male nurses does one see? One in 20 perhaps?

 

[kiwitripper64]

Airlines seem happy to ask for help from medical staff when required. And you can think "how would I feel if my relative was sick on a flight?"
Has anyone stories of what compensation is offered for helping. When you are on a flight you have paid for a chair, meal and a drink or 2. No one except medical retrieval teams are paid to spend an hour or more with a distressed passenger and crew. So when called, what do airlines offer? I have seen a compensation ranging from "well done, go back to your seat" to "choose something from the duty free catalogue". Any other stories?
Has anyone tried to invoice for their time ( after the event) if they are asked by the crew to help?

 

[Quickstatus]

Airlines seem happy to ask for help from medical staff when required. And you can think "how would I feel if my relative was sick on a flight?"
Has anyone stories of what compensation is offered for helping. When you are on a flight you have paid for a chair, meal and a drink or 2. No one except medical retrieval teams are paid to spend an hour or more with a distressed passenger and crew. So when called, what do airlines offer? I have seen a compensation ranging from "well done, go back to your seat" to "choose something from the duty free catalogue". Any other stories?
Has anyone tried to invoice for their time ( after the event) if they are asked by the crew to help?

The problem in receiving a consideration/compensation for "services rendered" means that the Good Samaritan protection does not apply.
No doctor in their right mind will want to invoice for such events.

As to gifts/kickbacks, I think the best is not to expect anything. I would suggest that any medico who expects a "kickback" in this situation is in the wrong profession. A simple "thank you" will suffice.

Whatever the motives of the airlines are, the proper place for onboard medical assistance is the voluntary

So the unanswered question is how would an qualified first aid responder (doctor, nurse, paramedic, first aid) respond?
If they ask, I would answer: "yes Im a doctor and Im happy to help, but i do not feel qualified nor equipped to deal with any medical emergencies on an aircraft".

Ive been given a bottle of cheap wine once. I declined - cos it was a cheap bottle of wine

 

[tgh]

What about me ? ..... seems a popular theme
What about the sick human ?....... not so much interest .. (unless $$ involved)

enlightening stuff

 

[kiwitripper64]

This was not meant to be ignore the sick or distressed, as I said, it could be the story where your relative /friend needed help. But it should also be about the person on holiday who has given help. This thread started with a post stating EK staff welcomed a member of the public onto a plane with "welcome to the flight, we will contact you for any medical problems during the flight ". And there was another thread about 2 flights with multiple consults.
My question is for after the event, what should be offered as a thanks from the airline?

 

[Quickstatus]

This was not meant to be ignore the sick or distressed, as I said, it could be the story where your relative /friend needed help. But it should also be about the person on holiday who has given help. This thread started with a post stating EK staff welcomed a member of the public onto a plane with "welcome to the flight, we will contact you for any medical problems during the flight ". And there was another thread about 2 flights with multiple consults.
My question is for after the event, what should be offered as a thanks from the airline?

I have no expectation of anything. A simple thanks from the CSM will suffice (but i would not care if it was not forthcoming)

 

[drron]

On QF once absolutely nothing.Once a bottle of wine-though I had been out of my J seat most of the way from SIN-LHR in a middle seat in Y.
Best-JAL-not because of any gift but heartfelt thanks from the FAs and later a letter from the President of JAL-and not a form letter.

 

[Quickstatus]

The next question to passengers in general:
If asked by cabin crew, would you give up your J seat for a sick Y passenger? And would you have expectations for compensations/considerations

A non form letter with a personally signed letter from the President/CEO would be very nice.

 

[tgh]

would you give up your J seat for a sick Y passenger

bbbut...this is 2019.. why me?
Why not that young feller down the way and across the corridor where I won't have to hear the moaning......??

I agree that the thread started out canvassing the issue of the airlines lining up prospective assistance and I agree that this seems somewhat tacky.
There also seemed to be an air of me-ism creeping into the discussion.. hence my provocative comment..(aimed at no one in particular I might add… )

A friend recently had a drug reaction (antihistamine) on a flight.
She was terrified, threw up , laboured breathing ,collapsed in the aisle…..yadyadayada
She had staggered back into y and received a lot of help and care from both the passengers and crew
The crew were were asking if she was alone and where she was sitting.
Behind an oxygen mask and not terribly coherent.. they went off into J seeking the wrong husband...
All turned out OK in the end..

A helpful medico in that situation would have been, on the human to human level, extremely welcome if not life saving.

 

[Quickstatus]

....bbbut...this is 2019.. why me?
Why not that young feller down the way and across the corridor....


....A helpful medico in that situation would have been, on the human to human level, extremely welcome if not life saving....

In the end it’s not really just that medicos noses are potentially out of joint over a request for medical assistance. This is by extension really about whether any of us would be ready/willing to assist in some capacity - whether based on occupational skill (medico) or because we are able bodied (the young feller) , or perhaps in a position to improve comfort (J swop to Y). And most importantly, does that willingness come with strings attached or conditions? - An expectation of a quid pro quo?.

Isnt the cabin space of an airliner, in some ways, an extension of the public space?. I understand that the space is a sold space but are we so mercenary to expect a consideration for a good deed done onboard?.

I would never assume that a medico will or might positively change the outcome of an inflight medical event. The opposite is also likely to be true.

 

[tgh]

Wise words Qs.. kudos….

 

[Pushka]

Airlines seem happy to ask for help from medical staff when required. And you can think "how would I feel if my relative was sick on a flight?"
Has anyone stories of what compensation is offered for helping. When you are on a flight you have paid for a chair, meal and a drink or 2. No one except medical retrieval teams are paid to spend an hour or more with a distressed passenger and crew. So when called, what do airlines offer? I have seen a compensation ranging from "well done, go back to your seat" to "choose something from the duty free catalogue". Any other stories?
Has anyone tried to invoice for their time ( after the event) if they are asked by the crew to help?

Not the Anaesthetist husband but his wife who is a registered nurse, offered assistance and was provided with a nice bottle of champagne. I think it was Emirates but could have been Qantas.

 

[k_sheep]

QF International and domestic - Attended a few, generally offered wine (always refused, paranoia about Good Samaritan status). Have had points turn up randomly afterwards (10-20,000). Tried phoning the first time to have it reversed, phone operator insisted it was a refund for a cancelled reward flight (it was not). Too hard. At this point I decided I had tried my best, and that should be enough to pass the 'pub test'.

AA domestic - call went out. I headed back from F and offered assistance. Someone was already there. FA asked my seat number in case they needed help later, told her and she said 'oh goodness me, no, you head back forward'.

All generally minor issues (kids with ear pain, FA with shoulder injury, vomiting etc). One gentleman who had collapsed (my diagnosis stroke) but that was luckily still on the ground so we were able to stabilise him and get him off pretty quickly.

As I get further and further away from junior doc years and clinical medicine I am less confident in my abilities, but I always apply the above rule of "if this was my mother". But I always ask if there is someone better around than a crusty pathologist