Family of 5, are points and rewards still worth pursuing? particularly if using platforms like pay.com.au?

[random111]

As title suggests, i'm assessing whether 'the juice will be worth the squeeze' of pursuing millions of points through my business expenses and the associated costs of using platforms like pay.com.au.

We have a points potential of around 5-6 million amex MR points through business at a cost of around $50k pre-tax per annum.

I've subcribed to seats.aero to look into future availability before committing the $ to points, from what I can see I would need to invest hours, be willing to eat into my holiday time due to more flight time, connections and or layovers to find 5 business or above tickets to European or US major airports. Even premium economy is a stretch to find 5 seats on reasonably direct flights to USA or europe during, even with 11 mths lead time!

If my math is correct the best case is i'm getting 0.8c to 1.2c per MR point value at a pre-tax cost of 1c per point, post tax cost can be between 0.5c to 0.75c depending on how you look at it...

The downsides
- restrictive and difficult to use the points (never actually used them but this is what it appears like to me)
- requires serious time investment to get good value of points
- holiday plans need to be ultra flexible
- willingness to fly for longer and in a 'round about' type way with more stops and/or layovers

Upsides
- cheaper premium classes vs. cash
- can use for accommodation with devent value in some instances

Clearly more down than upside there, what am I missing?

If it was just the wife and I then no brainer, I can see loads of 2 x seat availability on direct flights at decent redemption values. With a family of 5 with young kids however, being on board a plane for an extra X hours or having 1 to 2 stops vs. direct flight seems like a bad decision that I would forcing myself into given the cash outlay takes you through a one way door of sorts!!!

 

[Forg]

Maths, it’s maths not math.


Points should, IMHO, be considered a pleasant surprise that’s potentially a lucky side-effect of something you were going to do anyway. Plenty of people pay a lot of money to achieve points, same as plenty of people avoid income to avoid paying tax. There are those in a situation where they can get points ‘cos someone else is paying for Stuff, probably a lot of ‘em around here; but that’s not everyone.

 

[Robert K]

it's hard to play the points game when it's just me traveling most of the time.

For 5 people, Fuhgeddaboudit

 

[Pushka]

Consider just getting award tickets for a couple of members and pay for the rest. Still a saving.

 

[Happy Dude]

It's those who don't have a business to earn points that should be questioning 'the chase'. Accruing enough points with personal spend and CC churn and promos for two pax is hard enough, let alone the rest of the family too.

There's more than enough info on this site to combat your downsides.

 

[random111]

Maths, it’s maths not math.


Points should, IMHO, be considered a pleasant surprise that’s potentially a lucky side-effect of something you were going to do anyway. Plenty of people pay a lot of money to achieve points, same as plenty of people avoid income to avoid paying tax. There are those in a situation where they can get points ‘cos someone else is paying for Stuff, probably a lot of ‘em around here; but that’s not everyone.

american vs british english

Does It Ever Add Up To Say "Maths"?

We calculated the difference between the terms "math" and "maths" and have summed up that they both have a place in language, believe it or not.

www.thesaurus.com

Aussie and normally very aligned to british english but in this instance I think the yanks win!

I can see a use case for points over time as a byproduct, as you say, of normal spend. Spending more than I would otherwise, spending a bunch of money on fees - finding it hard to stack.

Post automatically merged: Aug 9, 2024

It's those who don't have a business to earn points that should be questioning 'the chase'. Accruing enough points with personal spend and CC churn and promos for two pax is hard enough, let alone the rest of the family too.

There's more than enough info on this site to combat your downsides.

I'm still very much a noob
Anything you can point to me would be much appreciated

Post automatically merged: Aug 9, 2024

it's hard to play the points game when it's just me traveling most of the time.

For 5 people, Fuhgeddaboudit

yikes!
That's my concern!

 

[bashworth]

Even with just two of us I frequently look at getting a points ticket for my wife and paying for my ticket. Still means we save around 40-45% of the travel if we both bought tickets.

It also has the advantage that I continue to pick up status points which is handy for lounge visits, and early booking access to points flights.

 

[levelnine]

Consider whether you'd get a better return on spend if you churned credit cards. The margins are razor thin on regular points earning in Australia, esp when you're paying a processor fee. All the gravy is in sign-up bonuses.

 

[CaptJCool]

Wow you’ve got the earn points made running a business and racking up millions of points on other peoples money



Go easy on the constraints cause they’re all artificial and can be overcome. If you’re working on the business not on it, you can have plenty of time Orf

Kids are resilient and can cope with extra time on flights etc it’s no deal breaker

However if you’re looking for the unicorn of 5 rewards tics on every holiday flight you take with 3 kids, I’d re-think the strategy. Under 12? There’s a fare discount right there
Travel on separate flights
2 on one
3 on the other

Creativity and innovation is meant to be the hallmark of Aussie businesses so I’m sure you can imagine a future where all your flying is done on someone. Else’s dime.

I’m grateful my employer paid a lot of my fares but guess what ? After Ansetts collapse
Never earnt ONE SINGLE FF point flying for the Aussie Govt yet STILL through the resource here of AFF LEARNT a lot and SAVED buckets of cash and made plenty of status credits on my PERSONAL PALTRY spend out of my OWN POCKET (yaddi ya what was left after income taxes, child support and home loans blah blah)

Look for the silver lining and be optimistic and pragmatic
And buy up those under 12 airfares

 

[Cynicor]

Even with your number you are looking at least at a 50% ROI, and I’d suggest the numbers are overly conservative, as not all your points will come with a cost.

But you’ll “never” get 5 points seats. Save 1-2 fares and then you are doing ok.

If you mostly travel economy and wouldn’t pay for business then it’s not worth it for you until you are ready to travel alone or with just 1 kid etc

 

[aikman]

Life is short and time is valuable. Use your credit card spend for another type of reward and pay cash for your flights. Leave the scramble for reward seats to others.

 

[flyguy77]

If you aren't flexible on things I wouldn't waste time/money collecting points in the hope of flying your family in Business Class.

Just buy tickets - trying to find seats and fly x5 people on points will just frustrate you and probably have little chance of success.

 

[random111]

Thanks all, helpful feedback

I'll likely build up points based for a few months and attempt a trip with a combo of points and cash ticket purchases then assess

Will report back on how that goes!

 

[random111]

If there's any other insights, particularly from those with larger families, please share!!

 

[firechickens]

Yep you can do it. I have a family of four so we're in a similar situation. After lots of searching I've come to the conclusion that you have to target Singapore Airlines and book 1 year in advance. Then it's possible - for example I can now see 5x SYD-FCO(Rome) and SYD-MUN(Munich) for 130,500 business for 29Jul2025.

Can't find reliable 4x award availability on any other airline that makes it worth chasing the points.

Addendum: these same flights cost about $87,000, through the MR points earn on your business you'd be paying about $39,000. Looks like your break even on AMEX surcharge is about 2.2%.

 

[flyguy77]

The margins are razor thin on regular points earning in Australia, esp when you're paying a processor fee.

Addendum: these same flights cost about $87,000, through the MR points earn on your business you'd be paying about $39,000.

And with a bit of flexibility on paid flights and booking during sale periods - you should be able to get x5 return to Europe even in Business for under 39k without the need to book 12 months in advance using points.

Depart from Asia and you'd probably get x5 return for well under $20 000

Makes you really question the value of points at times - especially for families.

A lot of it is honestly just marketing BS and 'inflated' redemption values.

 

[firechickens]

And with a bit of flexibility on paid flights and booking during sale periods - you should be able to get x5 return to Europe even in Business for under 39k without the need to book 12 months in advance using points.

Depart from Asia and you'd probably get x5 return for well under $20 000

Makes you really question the value of points at times - especially for families.

A lot of it is honestly just marketing BS and 'inflated' redemption values.

Yep, nothing more flexible than cash, that should be considered here.
As levelnine quite rightly says, all the gravy is in the sign-up bonuses. OPs scenario is points-on-spend only.
Probably on balance I'm keeping $50k in my pocket each year.

 

[random111]

Yep you can do it. I have a family of four so we're in a similar situation. After lots of searching I've come to the conclusion that you have to target Singapore Airlines and book 1 year in advance. Then it's possible - for example I can now see 5x SYD-FCO(Rome) and SYD-MUN(Munich) for 130,500 business for 29Jul2025.

Can't find reliable 4x award availability on any other airline that makes it worth chasing the points.

Addendum: these same flights cost about $87,000, through the MR points earn on your business you'd be paying about $39,000. Looks like your break even on AMEX surcharge is about 2.2%.

Thanks!!

$89k? I can see $56k on google flights flying out 16 July and back 28 July

Can be booked for 1.3m KF miles + $1.5k AUD in fees return - just realised seats.aero doesn't return singapore award flights in search results!! yikes!

3.9m MR points, $1.7m in spend, $34k pre tax post GST in cash cost to acquire points

Post tax could around $18k

Economy tix on same flight are $11.5k, premium economy $17.5k

MEL-SIN-MEL on Emirates in economy + SIN-MUC-SIN in Etihad business = $24k

Can see how it may be much of a muchness, obviously $18k vs $24k is a material saving, but as others have said if one can time a sale, then flexibility of cash + the status seems more appealing than buying points through processors. Free points through either way expenditure and sign up bonuses = different story!

Will still continue to learn and explore, approaching assuming our best prospect will be the redeem 2-3 tix and buy 2-3 tix approach others have mentioned

 

[levelnine]

$89k? I can see $56k on google flights flying out 16 July and back 28 July

Can be booked for 1.3m KF miles + $1.5k AUD in fees return - just realised seats.aero doesn't return singapore award flights in search results!! yikes!

3.9m MR points, $1.7m in spend, $34k pre tax post GST in cash cost to acquire points

Post tax could around $18k

Sounds like you can acquire Singapore Airlines miles for approximately 1.5c/pt.

That gives you a return business class ticket from SYD/MEL to LHR for about $4.5K (261K + $680).

That is good, but far from outstanding.

It means you're paying $22.5K for a family of 5.

If you just paid for economy, you say it'd cost $11.5K for a family of 5.

The question for you is whether paying an extra $11K + dealing with all the limitations that points collection involves (eg only flying Singapore routes and only booking a year in advance) worth it for business class?

The figures don't get any better if you decide to redeem for 2 and pay for 3 if you want all 5 in business. 3 paid business class tickets is likely to be at least $18K.

 

[random111]

Sounds like you can acquire Singapore Airlines miles for approximately 1.5c/pt.

That gives you a return business class ticket from SYD/MEL to LHR for about $4.5K (261K + $680).

That is good, but far from outstanding.

It means you're paying $22.5K for a family of 5.

If you just paid for economy, you say it'd cost $11.5K for a family of 5.

The question for you is whether paying an extra $11K + dealing with all the limitations that points collection involves (eg only flying Singapore routes and only booking a year in advance) worth it for business class?

The figures don't get any better if you decide to redeem for 2 and pay for 3 if you want all 5 in business. 3 paid business class tickets is likely to be at least $18K.

Appreciate that

Not sure we value business class that much yet, hell of a lot to pay for a kid as well!!! The principle of a kid at front of plane doesn't sit well with us...

Premium economy I would certainly see a case for, cash or points, a touch more comfortable is all we really need atm, will change as we age!

I wouldn't be doing the redeem 3 pay for 2 to get better value, more to improve the flexibility of redemption and not being so 'pot committed' - can easily use that level of points for a range of trips, beyond that and it'll be more difficult