Feeling properly stuffed by VA and Amex

[JayJay868]

I posted on the other thread here, check it out for my tips with how to proceed with Amex.

The gist is, regardless of fare type and whether it's refundable, the merchant (VA) has had a major failure to supply something you've paid for and you deserve a remedy. Aust Consumer Law should apply but ACCC says COVID could reduce some rights. And the travel credit is woefully inadequate as a remedy because of its short length of time to be used. It is essentially worthless and it's not a reasonable length of time to use a credit. Also these conditional credits were never part of the conditions of carriage. Ordinarily VA would issue a remedy such as a refund or travel bank if they cancelled a flight and could not accommodate on an alternative flight, not these these quick-to-expire travel credits.

Aside from this consumer law stuff, the protections of the various card schemes still apply, and particularly apply for a merchant who is insolvent. With insolvency proceedings the law surrounding that process has to be followed, and someone has to be the "unsecured creditors". Use any and all persuasion to make the disputes result in a successful chargeback so Amex in this instance is at a loss instead of you.

Complain to Amex then the AFCA. Hope you have success along the way.

 

[JB expat]

I posted on the other thread here, check it out for my tips with how to proceed with Amex.

The gist is, regardless of fare type and whether it's refundable, the merchant (VA) has had a major failure to supply something you've paid for and you deserve a remedy. Aust Consumer Law should apply but ACCC says COVID could reduce some rights.

Am about to check out your other thread but unless the AMEX card terms had a very cleverly drafted force majeure clause, how could COVID mean a different application of the charge back process?

 

[JayJay868]

Apologies if I didn't phrase it well. ACCC might have suggested some consumer rights may be reduced because of COVID but exactly as you mentioned, the rights under the card schemes remain intact.

The biggest battle it seems is reiterating the conditional credit is almost useless and not in any way an acceptable remedy, to help get the chargeback over the line in favour of the cardholder.

 

[hmmm]

So what exactly does travel insurance cover? All of us take it out (well, most), and all I hear are horror stories trying to claim when something goes wrong. It seems to me that insurance is for exactly this - specifically, for people who purchased flights (and insurance) PRIOR to declaration of a "pandemic".

This is the problem....

Travel insurance is, IMHO, a complete scam. Everything they claim to insure you for and against, they then deny with their complex and convoluted T&C’s. They even have an ‘Act of God’ Clause despite not having to prove that he/she/it even exists!

 

[Carrots]

This is the problem....

Travel insurance is, IMHO, a complete scam. Everything they claim to insure you for and against, they then deny with their complex and convoluted T&C’s. They even have an ‘Act of God’ Clause despite not having to prove that he/she/it even exists!

It's only a scam when one fails to read the terms and conditions and understand what you're actually purchasing, or when one clicks the box or listens to the travel agent who is happy to sell you a policy they generally have no clue about.

Granted domestic/leisure travel insurance is for the most part far more limited in coverage than a corporate travel cover (which generally just requires an ABN - at best).

I've only had a couple of claims for clients of mine to deal with so far and all of them have been paid for the out of pocket cancellation costs for their future of cut short trips - 3 claims and $250k later in claim payments.

But it's just a scam...

 

[Port Power]

I claimed on credit card insurance for a round trip where the return leg could not be taken. They paid me 50% of the fare paid. Granted COVID-19 and problems with VA completely change this situation, but I wanted to illustrate what might usually happen. (No changing the fare to a one-way price after the fact.)

 

[Ekka]

It's only a scam when one fails to read the terms and conditions and understand what you're actually purchasing, or when one clicks the box or listens to the travel agent who is happy to sell you a policy they generally have no clue about.

Granted domestic/leisure travel insurance is for the most part far more limited in coverage than a corporate travel cover (which generally just requires an ABN - at best).

I've only had a couple of claims for clients of mine to deal with so far and all of them have been paid for the out of pocket cancellation costs for their future of cut short trips - 3 claims and $250k later in claim payments.

But it's just a scam...

I have been closely reading the fine print since 1973, James, and have always known precisely what I thought I was purchasing, yet I I have had little result in three claims - the most serious very recently when I have been totally ignored, when I had the temerity to submit a claim because of this virus, after pointing out when I purchased it that that was precisely the reason I was expending an extra several hundred dollars.

I must agree with hmmm and JB expat.

Travel insurance is a scam.

 

[oz_mark]

I claimed on credit card insurance for a round trip where the return leg could not be taken. They paid me 50% of the fare paid. Granted COVID-19 and problems with VA completely change this situation, but I wanted to illustrate what might usually happen. (No changing the fare to a one-way price after the fact.)

An insurance claim would be for 50% as the insurer would have no visibility of one way fares. They wouldn't be in a position to adjust anything.

An airline can easily do it.

 

[ja1]

Travel insurance is a scam.

Close family relative travelled to US (last year) and had a medical episode (fainted) which resulted in an ambulance call.

The cost worked out to $5,000 and travel insurance refused to pay 'medical expenses' on the basis that the relative had consumed alcohol (had a glass of wine at dinner) and the policy stipulated consumption of alcohol was grounds for disallowing any claim.

Yes it is in the fine print. Is that a reasonable clause for travel insurance ?

So yes, I will book travel insurance for travel to the US but i have little confidence that it will end up being useful unless I am somehow lucky enough to meet all the provisions or I get a truly incompetent person who approves any claims at the insurer - and I assume they'll be fired shortly thereafter)

In the hierarchy of trust?

- Used car salespeople
- Politicians
- Travel insurance and credit card protection for travel

 

[Chicken]

If I'm not happy I can take it up with the Australian Financial Complaints Commission.

Any ideas, has anyone had any success in a similar situation to the above?

Do exactly you have been told, file a complain with Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA).

I and a close friend of mine have had various outcomes with trying to do chargebacks on AmEx, and they are inconsistent. There were cases where we though our cases were not clear and for a what I consider a big amount but it would come back approved, then there have been cases where it was a clear cut border on fraud for like $50 and AmEx would deny the chargeback, so we had to go to Financial Ombudsman Service.

All my complains with FOS / AFCA had been successful (even with PayPal!)

 

[JSavill]

They have re-priced the flown segments as a one way...it's something many of the airlines have been doing when arriving at the refund amount during this period. Very unfair on the customer who has then had to stump up for another full price one way.

this isn't just during this period - this is the standard calculation for all partial refunds when part of the ticket has been flown, Anyone who understands airline ticketing will know this. A one way ticket is never just half of a return ticket

 

[bcworld]

this isn't just during this period - this is the standard calculation for all partial refunds when part of the ticket has been flown, Anyone who understands airline ticketing will know this. A one way ticket is never just half of a return ticket

I know that, what I meant was this was not a voluntary change. It doesn't pass any fairness test when the customer was provided no alternative in event of cancellation.

 

[JSavill]

Close family relative travelled to US (last year) and had a medical episode (fainted) which resulted in an ambulance call.

The cost worked out to $5,000 and travel insurance refused to pay 'medical expenses' on the basis that the relative had consumed alcohol (had a glass of wine at dinner) and the policy stipulated consumption of alcohol was grounds for disallowing any claim.

Yes it is in the fine print. Is that a reasonable clause for travel insurance ?

So yes, I will book travel insurance for travel to the US but i have little confidence that it will end up being useful unless I am somehow lucky enough to meet all the provisions or I get a truly incompetent person who approves any claims at the insurer - and I assume they'll be fired shortly thereafter)

In the hierarchy of trust?

- Used car salespeople
- Politicians
- Travel insurance and credit card protection for travel

absolutely all Travel Insurances have this clause - without exception, they will all wiggle out of any claim if any drugs or alcohol are in your system, even if it was not your fault - its the same with riding motorbikes, many people seem to think they are covered but in almost all cases you are not

 

[equus]

they will all wiggle out of any claim if any drugs or alcohol are in your system

They might try, but if they are an Australian licensed insurer, they won't get away with it unless they can prove that it was a contributory cause to the claim.

If you had a drink with dinner, and are a passenger in a taxi which is involved in a crash, they won't be able to deny your claim. They may try it on in the hope that you go away, but involving the appropriate ombudsman will see them change their tune pretty quickly.

 

[ozstamps]

Travel insurance covers the salaries and bonuses of travel insurance salespeople. Anyone with an advanced degree in legal documentation interpretation and application knows that.

Ha!

 

[Cubiscus]

The legislation for insurance is changing by next April to remove 'unfair' terms (which should include the drink one described above) and to ensure insurers act fairly to customers. Even at this stage a complaint to the ombudsman may resolve the situation.

Motorbike riding, winter sports etc are considered high risk activities. You can often purchase additional cover for these as they're not usually covered by default.

Travel insurance does usually run on thin profit margins after the cost of claims, running the business and any commissions are deducted.

 

[Daver6]

The legislation for insurance is changing by next April to remove 'unfair' terms (which should include the drink one described above) and to ensure insurers act fairly to customers. Even at this stage a complaint to the ombudsman may resolve the situation.

Motorbike riding, winter sports etc are considered high risk activities. You can often purchase additional cover for these as they're not usually covered by default.

Travel insurance does usually run on thin profit margins after the cost of claims, running the business and any commissions are deducted.

An area that I think the insurance industry needs to be cleaned up in is their unwillingness to tell you if you're covered for something. Ie, you call up to ask about a specific event and the response is always the extremely unhelpful "put in a claim and we'll assess it". Sometimes you're just wanting to know if a certain event happens whether the policy covers you or not. I think this is a deliberate attempt to be opaque to either discourage people from claiming or force them onto a higher level of cover than they actually need.

 

[Carrots]

An area that I think the insurance industry needs to be cleaned up in is their unwillingness to tell you if you're covered for something. Ie, you call up to ask about a specific event and the response is always the extremely unhelpful "put in a claim and we'll assess it". Sometimes you're just wanting to know if a certain event happens whether the policy covers you or not. I think this is a deliberate attempt to be opaque to either discourage people from claiming or force them onto a higher level of cover than they actually need.

Agree completely. This is extremely prevalent in the direct insurer space. There are examples out there of people ringing to obtain a quote, asking a question about coverage only to be put through to the claims team as the sales consultant (I use this term loosely) in the call centre can't (or is not allowed to) answer the coverage question.

 

[Chicken]

Ie, you call up to ask about a specific event and the response is always the extremely unhelpful "put in a claim and we'll assess it". Sometimes you're just wanting to know if a certain event happens whether the policy covers you or not. I think this is a deliberate attempt to be opaque to either discourage people from claiming or force them onto a higher level of cover than they actually need.

Let me put your question in reverse.

Say you are a customer service staff working for travel insurance. I call you, and ask you if my trip this month is covered. Would you dare give me an answer?

If you say I am not covered, then I claim anyway and my claim is approved, I could accuse you of representing your company, and trying to discourage me from claiming.

If you say I am covered, then I claim and is rejected, I could say that YOU told me that I am covered, so your employer made a false representation, and I am going to now do all sorts of actions against your employer.

So, what would you do, if you were on the other end of the line?

 

[Port Power]

Isn’t there a travel insurance thread for this type of discussion?