Flying without the wheels leaving the ground...

[munitalP]

4 of us have just arrived in Beijing from Shanghai by using the new high speed rail network. Our sample was yesterday, a 1 hour journey from Shanghai to Suzhou - 300km p/h most of the way in comfort, and then today Shanghai to Beijing with one stop only. That was 1250km of 300 km p/h travel - a couple of max speeds around the 310 km p/h mark.

Pros:

1. Speed
2. Comfort
3. Room
4. Cost

Cons:

1. Speed

My statement to Oz_mark was if Australia had a rail network the same with similar cost as Chinas new high speed network, I believe I would struggle to maintain Platinum. My question is - how many else would think along this line?

munitalP

 

[straitman]

The cynic in me forced a vote for option #3. :shock:

 

[anat0l]

Long post ahead! The tl;dr version is - yes I like the idea, but there are huge issues, mostly political and some geographical.

Come to think of it, we've had a discussion like this before.

Now the long version...

Having had the privilege of using the rail network in Europe and Japan, I'd use it for intercity trips if it were available.

In saying that there are a lot of challenges rolling out high speed intercity rail in Australia. Plenty of those challenges are geographical and not really in the "control" of the decision-makers, however a good amount are political. It is the same reason why high speed rail in the USA is not very common (which is further compounded by extensive support to the airlines and airports by the government). Also, we are facing a situation where we have a lot of built up areas that would no doubt be in the path of the relatively straight high speed rail link required to be built. This of course means that resuming of properties will be necessary, and there will be plenty of NIMBY complaints.

One has to weigh up with high speed rail vs air that there is a time invested having to (1) go to the airport, (2) be at the airport a certain amount of time before boarding, and (3) travel from the airport to the city. In addition, if rail services can provide additional comfort beyond the simple plane trip - e.g. wireless internet (preferably free of charge, but not a high chance), full complement dining / bar - that helps make the case for high speed rail.

Weighing this up, however, will be the cost of a train trip which would need to be competitive versus - I would posit - the cheapest premium airline fares (i.e. QF Red e-Deal and VA Saver with/without bags); you might be able to compare plane Business with a similar one on a train if applicable. Timing and schedule would also be an issue. I don't see high speed rail being something that you'd use for a day trip starting with a 9am meeting (you would need to get to the HSR station early in the morning, which for many in the suburbs might be more difficult than getting to the airport); it would need to be slightly later but intending a busy day, and a flight plus the traffic on arrival is more sapping than simply working on the train and pulling up to Central.

Moreover, we don't want to see another aircraft running along the ground, i.e.:

• Legroom of more than 30-32" - a bit more than this might do. Oddly enough, rail in most of the trains I've been in are actually about this pitch, viz. about 32" or maybe a bit more (in lowest class available).
• Simpler fare structure - this is a pipe dream more than anything, since obviously tiered fares will always dominate where things like refundability and class of service can be discriminated. Let's not even thing of frequent traveler schemes...
• No baggage piece/weight restrictions, subject to reasonable limits. When I've traveled, there are (or at least that I can remember - there might be) no nominal limits on how much you can take on board the train, however it is up to you to fit your bags somewhere that doesn't impede safety. In reality there isn't a lot of room (even some airline regulation luggage will struggle to fit); in most situations in Europe, people are disciplined by this and travel relatively light compared to, say, USA air travel standards, or Australian golden triangle travel during peak hour. Of course, with trains, all baggage is carry-your-own, which means if you can't carry it or lift it, too bad so sad. No baggage handlers union to put up with and no priority baggage to worry about
• Fast station-to-train process. I'm not sure whether security screening is necessary, though I'd like it not to be, however given that it's not reasonable (by "definition") to ignore the possible threat of terrorism on trains, I think we won't escape this. FWIW none of the travel in trains that I've done has security screening, except for Eurostar (was screened on Paris-London).
• Stations situated as centrally as possible, with possible suburban stops (as few as possible).

 

[SeatBackForward]

We don't have the population densities required to make such high speed rail justifiable. Freight may push it over the line. But freight requires a different type of rail tohigh speed, passenger line. although the Speedily hid in 1996 had enough going for the SYD-CBR route that Qantas was an equity partner...

 

[Fantic125]

I've used high speed rail in France, Germany, Japan and Korea as an alternative to flying and found it a great alternative to flying.

I think it would be a viable option between the main cities on the east coast and possibly even to Adelaide, but most probably too costly to Perth.

 

[munitalP]

I've used high speed rail in France, Germany, Japan and Korea as an alternative to flying and found it a great alternative to flying.

I think it would be a viable option between the main cities on the east coast and possibly even to Adelaide, but most probably too costly to Perth.

Yes, I am the same, I have used the ICE many times as well as the X trains in Sweden and the French network - the Chinese G trains are very limited stops though - as mentioned, 1 stop between Shanghai and Beijing, they also run on dedicated lines.

I agree that they are a great alternative to flying!

 

[erko_adam]

I would love to see it happen here in AUS but probably share the same cynicism as others regarding the political tap dancing required to ever get a project like this delivered. I regularly use the ICE for the journey between Hamburg & Berlin and enjoy it as a nice change to flying.

 

[The Rok]

I think the vast distances covered through sometimes very very VERY harsh terrain between Australian cities would pose more of a problem than political will. In some cases the scorching desert heat in summer would make it virtually impossible for a HST to do 300kmph + safely.

Nice idea but unlikely to happen. I also think the cost of it over flying would make it unjustifiable. Just think how many trains you would have to have just to cover ¼ of the available flight schedules.

 

[Berlin]

I don't think it will ever happen here in Australia but we can dream... I always loved the idea of closing down both Sydney and Canberra airport and building a brand new one somewhere in the middle, linked by an ulta-fast train. No issues with noise complaints, vast space to extend it in the future if necessary and -best of it all- we can get rid of the horrid airports that Canberra and Sydney are right now

 

[medhead]

I'd use it if they had it in Australia. I've used the European trains in various countries. Mum has done FRA-MUC a number of times by both train and plane. After allowing for a decent connection time the train works out better, that is for a 5 to 6 hour train journey on the ICE.

The critical issue is density and of course travel time. It would probably work well between the east coast capitals with no more than one stop. 3 to 4 hour travel time. the big expense would be putting livestock proof tracks. Heat would be an issue of course, but them the germans deal with the opposite problem of cold, so there should be a solution.

ADL-MEL might work, but I doubt it. Anything beyond that is just totally out because the distances are too vast such that the train journey time is too long even when considering the time slack for getting to the airport early.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[jsoprano]

I would definitely use it, and I am convinced it would be a success in the long run at least on the MEL-CBR-SYD corridor. However, as many have already stated, I cannot see it happening as unfortunately there are too many political and social obstacles in the way. I don’t see any geographical issues, because all other countries with an efficient HSR network did overcome those in one way or the other (i.e. landscape – see Japan, or NIMBYs – see Germany). It would not work to Perth though, or anywhere north of Sunshine Coast, distances just become too far than. Even Adelaide would be a stretch from Melbourne, with not much in between.

Some major obstacles in Australia that I see are:

• HSR is a long-term investment for future generations to come. I do not see any government or private investor having the wisdom to put money into this if it does not pay returns within a 10 to 15 year horizon (maybe not even that long). And if an investor wants those returns from a HSR line, then pricing would be uncompetitive, so it is deemed to be a failure, competing against cheap airfares.
• The lack of efficient public transport systems to feed pax from suburban areas into the Central station to connect seamless with the HSR.
• The enduring “chicken and egg” discussion – “We do not have the population density between the large cities.” Correct, but why? One of the reasons is lack of connection to the large cities. If you don’t provide the infrastructure, no one will move there (businesses as well as families).
• The strength of unions and industry sectors opposing such a development, to only name a few: airlines, airports, Australian car manufacturers, various unions linked to those industries, even the real estate sector.

Even though I don’t see it happening, it’s still working in theory. To stay with the Melbourne to Sydney example, the HSR could even start in Geelong and terminate in Newcastle and have stops along the way as follows:

Geelong – Melbourne Southwest (Werribee)- Melbourne Southern Cross – Melbourne North/Airport – Albury/Wodonga – Canberra – Sydney West (Parramatta) – Sydney Central – Sydney North - Newcastle

Not every train would need to stop everywhere or start/terminate at Geelong or Newcastle. You would have “Express Trains” every hour which would run MEL-CBR-SYD only, with Canberra being the only stop on the way, alternating with trains that run Geelong to Newcastle all the way and stop at all or selected stations on the way, giving travellers 2 to 4 options per hour to choose from. This way with one HSR line you would cover various markets:

Geelong – Melbourne CBD/MEL Airport/Sydney vv.
Melbourne – Albury-Wodonga/Canberra/Sydney/Newcastle vv.
Albury-Wodonga – Canberra/Sydney vv.
Canberra – Sydney/Newcastle vv.
Sydney – Newcastle vv.

… and so on.

I think it would work, I just don’t think it’s going to happen. Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it to here .

 

[zig]

Yes, I would definitely use it - I have enjoyed rail travel in many countries (except Australia sadly). As others have posted though, I don't think we will see comparative services in Australia.

 

[tuapekastar]

I think (ticket) cost may be an issue. MEL-SYD by 'slow' train (~11 hours) currently costs ~$90 for an economy ticket and ~$130 for first class. I have no idea what would be charged for a VFT but I imagine it would be considerably more than that, given the capital infrastructure costs and running costs. Which could potentially make it way more expensive than air travel.

Competitively priced, and suitably comfortable, I would certainly consider using it, but as others have said, an awful lot of ducks are going to have to line up for it to happen.

 

[anat0l]

I think (ticket) cost may be an issue. MEL-SYD by 'slow' train (~11 hours) currently costs ~$90 for an economy ticket and ~$130 for first class. I have no idea what would be charged for a VFT but I imagine it would be considerably more than that, given the capital infrastructure costs and running costs. Which could potentially make it way more expensive than air travel.

Competitively priced, and suitably comfortable, I would certainly consider using it, but as others have said, an awful lot of ducks are going to have to line up for it to happen.

I don't know how the "slow" train can charge prices like that, though it might explain why the service is poorly used.

If it's any consolation, except when the transport system goes to the dogs, the prices of train tickets is fairly steady as a function of time, unlike similar domestic airfares. My friend found this quite handy one week when he needed to travel to SYD in a hurry. There were no cheap airfares left, but the train was available at close to normal "cheap" airfare rates. Timing worked out OK for him (2 x overnight trains).

This is something I found especially true in Japan, where you can pick up a Shinkansen fare at almost any time and it will be the same price whenever you decide to buy it, though having said that there is a fair amount of price regulation in Japan (this applies somewhat to airfares and hotels, too).

Having had a quick random search on Hyperdia and Skyscanner, the prices of a reserved, non-Green Car seat on the Nozomi Shinkansen (one-way between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka) vs. an airfare on ANA (one-way between Haneda and Itami) are quite similar. Whether this is also due to government regulation is unknown and debatable... (whereishome could provide a proper critique if he was here...) In saying that, you still have to factor in the cost of getting to/from the terminii to home/work.

The costs of airfares (using non-LCCs via Skyscanner) on a random date between other high speed rail pairs like FRA/MUC and PEK/SHA are probably similarly competitive or better on rail, however it is rare for fares in the BNE/SYD/CBR/MEL "linear" network to be that high (i.e. not that you would have difficulty in obtaining a relatively lower fare, which at most would be around $110 for SYD/MEL). This does make a very big challenge for high speed rail, and certainly the government will not even dare contemplate subsidising the network - the corporate and even public backlash from something like that would be worse than a horrible nightmare.

With almost dead-even fares on high speed rail compared to planes, depending on timing I'd be leaning towards taking the train, and then the only thing I'd miss are airline miles and status credits (alright... and maybe lounges...)

The strength of unions and industry sectors opposing such a development, to only name a few: airlines, airports, Australian car manufacturers, various unions linked to those industries, even the real estate sector.

*shudder*

 

[SeatBackForward]

We don't have the population densities required to make such high speed rail justifiable. Freight may push it over the line. But freight requires a different type of rail tohigh speed, passenger line. although the Speedily hid in 1996 had enough going for the SYD-CBR route that Qantas was an equity partner...

Thats what you get for replying on a tiny phone screen..

Speedily = Speedrail had in 1996.

 

[medhead]

I think (ticket) cost may be an issue. MEL-SYD by 'slow' train (~11 hours) currently costs ~$90 for an economy ticket and ~$130 for first class. I have no idea what would be charged for a VFT but I imagine it would be considerably more than that, given the capital infrastructure costs and running costs. Which could potentially make it way more expensive than air travel.

Competitively priced, and suitably comfortable, I would certainly consider using it, but as others have said, an awful lot of ducks are going to have to line up for it to happen.

I don't know how the "slow" train can charge prices like that, though it might explain why the service is poorly used.

The pricing for the ICE FRA-Munich is pretty comparable to those prices. And they do increase as it gets towards the travel date. for example second class increasing from 30/40-ish euro up towards 90/100 euro. These are also tiered prices allowing flexible and non-flexible tickets things like that. I guess one difference is the train tickets prices are capped. Capital return is going to be the most important thing, but surely if they can fill the trains then they should get the return.

With almost dead-even fares on high speed rail compared to planes, depending on timing I'd be leaning towards taking the train, and then the only thing I'd miss are airline miles and status credits (alright... and maybe lounges...)

Deustche Bahn do have lounges.....first class ones at that....:shock:

 

[anat0l]

Deustche Bahn do have lounges.....first class ones at that....:shock:

You do have to lower your standards if you're used to airline lounges.

Even compared to LH's rather meagre offerings in its lounge system, DB lounges are nothing more to escape the platform and get a free paper and drink (i.e. a soft drink or machined coffee). (Possible exceptions are Frankfurt and Berlin Hbf).

 

[medhead]

You do have to lower your standards if you're used to airline lounges.

Even compared to LH's rather meagre offerings in its lounge system, DB lounges are nothing more to escape the platform and get a free paper and drink (i.e. a soft drink or machined coffee). (Possible exceptions are Frankfurt and Berlin Hbf).

Maybe not even that, as best I could work out the FRA fernbhof lounge had paid wifi.

I like the platform in Germany anyway, with the regimented system of plans for each train and all that.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[Hvr]

I don't think it will ever happen here in Australia but we can dream... I always loved the idea of closing down both Sydney and Canberra airport and building a brand new one somewhere in the middle, linked by an ulta-fast train. No issues with noise complaints, vast space to extend it in the future if necessary and -best of it all- we can get rid of the horrid airports that Canberra and Sydney are right now

Never happen, way too many politics on both sides to ever be considered.

I would definitely use it, and I am convinced it would be a success in the long run at least on the MEL-CBR-SYD corridor. <snip>

Some major obstacles in Australia that I see are:

• The strength of unions and industry sectors opposing such a development, to only name a few: airlines, airports, Australian car manufacturers, various unions linked to those industries, even the real estate sector.

I think it would work, I just don’t think it’s going to happen. Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it to here .

I reckon the industry sectors would be the main problem. They are generally very short sighted and demand welfare in the form of subsidies and incentive payments to try anything new.

Look at Gerry Harvey for the perfect example of a whinger who is backing a dying industry and wants government intervention to protect his business rather than the general good.

I just don't see how unions would consider this anything other than an awesome opportunity to gain new skills and jobs for their members.

Another example is the NBN, we desperately need high speed internet across the country and private industry is totally against it (maybe because the Liberal party is?) yet when it is up and running they will demand incentives to use it. Of course if they are clever enough to develop new business models and actually work out how to make a profit they will never repay the welfare they have received.

A typical "socialise the losses and privatise the profit scenario".

A HSR would definitely improve LCCs. Imagine if Jet* could use CBR as a base for international flights with connecting trains to SYD. There would be flights from CBR to SIN/HKT/BKK very quickly.

A good place to start HSR would be the CBR-SYD route. It is short enough to be done in 70 minutes and would relieve a lot of pressure on SYD AP.

Like many people here I have travelled on HSR in Japan and China and loved it. The Shanghai MagLev is simply a wonderful experience. As for the Japanese railway system, well as someone who used to travel on the MEL suburban system a lot, I love Japan.


Still the big problem in Australia is that we cannot do 'slow' rail well. Rail based public transport is generally viewed poorly compared to road based travel even when the latter is clearly inefficient. A very clear example of how the strongest industry group pays off politicians to the detriment of all society.

 

[k_sheep]

I don't think it will ever happen here in Australia but we can dream... I always loved the idea of closing down both Sydney and Canberra airport and building a brand new one somewhere in the middle, linked by an ulta-fast train. No issues with noise complaints, vast space to extend it in the future if necessary and -best of it all- we can get rid of the horrid airports that Canberra and Sydney are right now

Love this idea!

I voted yes, but didn't really read it correctly. I love rail travel (and am currently planning a transmongolian/siberian trip in May 2012) and have used it extensively in Asia and Europe. But I don't think it can work here, for all the reasons already mentioned. At least not in the next few decades - if the population keeps growing and creeping out of the cities along the East coast then it might work. I don't think the 300+kph is realistic though.