General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[MARTINE]

OK so now we all need to work out how we are going to politely say to some of our friends, I'm sorry but if you're not vaccinated I don't want to associate with you. You can make that call if it's work colleagues but not family and friends. Some tough discussions to be had.

We have been having the rules of engagement talks for a year in preparation so no surprise policy.. pre-Corona it was reasonable to exclude the unvaxxed around young babies/no one who smokes has ever done so can inside my house (admittedly rare in my friendship group ) ….and we all agreed on the start a discussion - not a fire - rule around Covid views . Although to be honest in metro Melb once it all went to S—T we stopped following the media as we knew what to do and for sanity and agreed we would ban all discussion of the C word. So that’s how we negotiate difficult conversations - if it gets too heated we just put up the virtual or occasional time out signal. lunatic antivaxxer types I’m happy to never see again if they find our rules too oppressive. Wonderful what you can do in old age

 

[wandering_fred]

As the percentage of "vaccinated persons" grows there are a couple of remaining issues.
1- The vaccines are leaky. While the incidence of ICU admissions (and deaths) is being greatly reduced, vaccinated people are still becoming infected and capable of transmitting the disease. A prophylactic treatment (at a societally affordable cost) needs to be made available.... There seems to be a conflict here between large scale experience and the standards of modern medical practices.
2- Not all people are going to have satisfactory antibody responses to the vaccines (this will aggravate #1). Serious testing and data analysis needs to be done at intervals post vaccine. This has started (Israel?) and the results are less than optimal for health (my opinion).
And people who have recovered from the disease may have better future protection.

Will the consumption of popcorn and beer satisfy the bystanders long term?

There I go again - wandering
Fred

 

[Batterytraveller]

Sorry, the whole vaccine mandate thing is worrisome

1) medical treatment has never been coerced
2) medical treatment is private and confidential
3) our interactions with other people has never been based solely on a person’s medical status.
4) there has never been a 100% vaccination rate anywhere in the world for any infection
5) you don’t need 100% vaccination to quell a virus
6) when politics injects into a pandemic, beware.

I agree that in certain scenarios, that may be justified - such as smoking in indoor public places, and childcare immunisations.

Remember that that the only thing keeping the ugly side of humanity at bay is one thin line. If people start reading the history of quarantines across history, the stories are rarely good.

I caution going down that route.

No jab no pay for childhood vaccines has been on the books since 2015, many childcare and school settings mandate vaccinations for kids and medical situations mandate vaccines for staff.

It's not coercion, its basic health and safety, like mandating hard had, steel toe boots and high viz on a construction site - you're free not to wear any of these but you aren't going to do any work for me if you aren't wearing these three items when you come on my site.

 

[Quickstatus]

mandating hard had, steel toe boots and high viz on a construction site

That is not medical treatment.

 

[Pushka]

OK so now we all need to work out how we are going to politely say to some of our friends, I'm sorry but if you're not vaccinated I don't want to associate with you. You can make that call if it's work colleagues but not family and friends. Some tough discussions to be had.

That is an issue I don't have to face but son has a work colleague who absolutely refuses to be vaccinated. He's finding it rather stressful as they have lots of work social events. They plan to head off for UK just before Christmas and can't risk catching covid. But there's a Christmas dinner the night before. Lucky he's mainly WFH and his clients seem to require vaccinated people only.

This is why rapid testing would be at least something. UK family always do a rapid test before visiting family. It's not a perfect science but if we aim for perfect we will fail.

DIL insisted if no whooping cough booster then no visiting new baby.

 

[VPS]

Yes friends won't let me visit babies without whooping cough so I think I'm OK with people who won't get vaccinated against COVID

 

[mrsterryn]

DIL insisted if no whooping cough booster then no visiting new baby.

Dil here was the same . Mind you it was pre arrival grandbaby no. 1 who did not grow well initially and almost fell off those charts with lack of growth
Lol grandson No.2 is bigger at three months now than No.1 was at six months
I actually thought some vaccinations were required (pre covid )?

 

[wandering_fred]

...
I actually thought some vaccinations were required (pre covid )?

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) quietly updated its definition of “vaccine” and “vaccination” on September 1 from providing “immunity” to merely providing “protection.”

I think they are wandering (and that is generous)
Fred

 

[Pushka]

Dil here was the same . Mind you it was pre arrival grandbaby no. 1 who did not grow well initially and almost fell off those charts with lack of growth
Lol grandson No.2 is bigger at three months now than No.1 was at six months
I actually thought some vaccinations were required (pre covid )?

That's interesting. Our grandson is likely still not done so great on the charts physically but he's strong and eats well. And certainly bright enough mentally.

Vaccinations only essential for Centrelink benefits and childcare kindy. Has had the desired effect, I think around 95% rate.

 

[jb747]

That is not medical treatment.

It's an attempt to avoid needing medical treatment.

 

[drron]

The NIH and CDC in the USA are teaming up to provide free rapid home testing kits to various communities to get the evidence for the future.They have already done 8 week pilot studies which were successful.

Learning to Protect Communities with COVID-19 Home Testing Programs

With most kids now back in school, parents face a new everyday concern: determining whether their child’s latest cough or sneeze might be a sign of COVID-19. If so, parents will want to keep their …

directorsblog.nih.gov

 

[Quickstatus]

It's an attempt to avoid needing medical treatment.

Very simple on one level.
Though the issue is much more complex - a conflict between public health ethics and individual autonomy and liberty

Lots of writing about this ethical dilemma out there - and also specifically within the health sector.

The “do no harm” one comes to mind. Health care workers should vaccinate themselves to protect the vulnerable in the hospital. Actually proper PPE better protects the vulnerable patient than a vaccinated health worker. What about health care worker working environment so that they can properly look after the sick - that is constantly being eroded.

There is no mandate that requires all patients who have comorbidities (whether vaccinated or not) to be managed by health workers in the most Covid safe way - which is full PPE. Why not? And yet there is a mandate for health workers to be vaccinated?.

I wish for all the be vaccinated but I’m not keen on abandoning the ethics that underpin all that we do.

 

[Pom-DownUnder]

i'm not happy saying to someone take this thing, there's a one in a million chance it'll kill you, if you dont do it then you cannot be part of society.

and yes i'm double vaxxed.

I also believe the vaxx works, so i'm comfortable being a part of the world again, where i might sit on a plane next to someone and catch their cold / their flu. where i might get on a train and accidentally brush hands with someone who gives me scabies, where i might go out into a bar and have someone prepare food for me that isnt cooked right and end up with some sort of intestinal worm.

the big bad outdoors has risks, i've taken my steps, i'm happy to go out there again. What others want to do is not up to me to coerce them.

just my 2c

 

[Quickstatus]

might get on a train and accidentally brush hands with someone who gives me scabies,

…The aircraft where someone put their bare feel on the bulkhead… definitely need PPE for that.

 

[wandering_fred]

Steel toe shoes etc.
When they are required by OSHA or health regulations, they are a valid business expense and can be deducted from gross income. Add not being allowed on work sites unless you have them and people (will) buy them.
Coercion? Well in the end it has been proven that lower medical costs saves the government more money than the lost tax revenue.

Is a comparison with vaccinations wandering?

Fred

 

[Quickstatus]

Is a comparison with vaccinations wandering?

Many would consider vaccinations to be different to safety equipment though as suggested by some have similar outcome intentions

 

[andye]

Just read in the UK Telegraph (may be paywalled) that 17% of British patients on ECMO (the highest level of intensive care) are unvaccinated pregnant women.
This is a potentially hesitant group but this accentuates the importance of vaccination for them

Fifth of critically ill Covid patients are unvaccinated pregnant women

England’s chief midwife, says data ‘a stark reminder’ that jabs can ‘keep you, your baby and your loved ones safe and out of hospital‘

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[ethernet]

Sydney airwaves (radio and FTA tv) are simply flooded with vaccination adverts over the last month from many many sources.

I've had need to watch some catch up on Nine Now app (where you cant skip ads) and every second advert is for getting the jab - this week alone I've seen ads from: Feds, NSW Government, Channel 9, Construction Union, Pubs/Hoteliers Association, Tourism NSW, Celebrity Chefs (Matt Moran & Co) and others, all pushing the positive opening up benefits for the vaccinated.

Its actually at saturation point right now, if your anywhere that advertising is.

Dang, I watch so little television nowadays, 19 minutes+ per hour ads is over the top. Anyway the ads are useless, preaching to those already vaccinated, redirecting lockdown anger to possible relief. All soft positive imagery. Failed to target those ethnic low income hotspots - or emphasize relative failure of Cwth aged care/disability rollout.

In ACT, hot social media ran a 'Your chance to get a selfie having the jab is running out' when combined with babies are getting covid - you could too. The sick babies bit had mothers pulling their kids in by the ears. But oddly, not their husbands. I predict a booster campaign, 'You can now get it in the ***' followed by attractive Gluteus Maximus shots selfies would be a winner, suggesting it might give you a *** lift.

 

[ethernet]

BBC debunks ivermectin by John Campbell. The takehome is it debunks nothing, and the opinion piece lacks references. Then there is a claim that people are being paid/employed to debunk IV (in another video). From 23:56 Japanese Research- Merck said it has no intention of starting clinical trials for IV. But Merck is conducting trials on a new, very expensive drug. Reminds me of Operation Berkshire - Wikipedia

 

[Quickstatus]

It’s not HIV, the vast vast majority of people recover from this. When it comes to the vaccinated, basically all of them.

Rather than say basically all vaccinated will recover, it is better to say the mortality rate for 2Jab vax is very low



Even the ASMR for the unvaccinated fell dramatically. I (speculation) put this down to:
1) relatively high prevalence of previous exposure to Covid19 and therefore immunity
2) vaccination in the majority of the population
3) the combined effect of the 2 = emerging herd immunity?
4) better treatment of Covid19

It would be very interesting to get some real data out of India. Its all quiet there. One colleague who has family in Mumbai says the hospitals are all coping now.