General Discussion/Q&A on Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Maisy33]

To my knowledge I haven’t had it. Hubby had 4 weeks ago. Will get my booster in the next week Or so

 

[Major]

Got my booster booster this week. Man I just love the sore shoulder I get with every Covid-19 vaccination. I thought I must just get it with every injection and I didn't remember it but in amongst these I had a flu shot with no shoulder soreness. Anyway just a thought. Still Covid free in our family, the last ones in our extended family who haven't got it.

I was the opposite. No shoulder pain with any of my 4 Covid shots but ended up with a sore shoulder after my flu shot

 

[Warks]

I was the opposite. No shoulder pain with any of my 4 Covid shots but ended up with a sore shoulder after my flu shot

The only difference with my flu shot was the doctor seemed to inject to the side of the deltoid rather than straight into the centre. I was thinking that might make a difference.

 

[Quickstatus]

Whatever happened to the concept of shedding?

Shedding vs active infection is not well understood in terms of the implications for infection control, but this is the article you want to read - and read again to really understand what it means. Basically PCR testing cannot distinguish between whole virus capable of infection and viral fragments or inactive virus. Like any test, the intepretation of the result is important - and also why widespread testing of populations especially when asymptomatic is not recommended.

Note I did not actually use the words dead or live virus, because technically there is no such thing as a dead or live virus....

 

[JohnK]

- pandemic

(of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world

- endemic

(of a disease or condition) regularly found among particular people or in a certain area

Are these definitions correct? Why would we describe coronavirus as endemic when it is clearly a pandemic?

- ebola is endemic
- yellow fever is endemic
- lime disease is endemic

By definition coronavirus must remain a pandemic? We don't change definitions to make it easy for people to move on. We need to ensure that people understand the seriousness and take appropriate precautions.

Life as we know it will not be the same. Much easier to move on knowing we cannot return to pre-2020 and make necessary adjustments.

 

[Quickstatus]

pandemic

widespread and exponential growth of disease numbers spanning multiple countries

endemic

PERSISTENT presence of a disease in a particular area.

Malaria is endemic
Covid is currently pandemic - widespread disease spread, but also endemic - ie it is persistently causing infections in a particular area.
Influenza is endemic - but not pandemic currently because even though it if found all over the world, there is not the widespread growth of disease numbers. There might be epidemic outbreaks from time to time - meaning that influenza might have exponential or rapid growth but limited to certain areas at a time.

 

[Quickstatus]

So here are some figures from the ABS to 31Jan 2022

Total deaths with/from covid = 2639
Total deaths where Covid underlying cause = 2556
Total deaths where Covid not the underlying cause = 83

91.4% had Covid +/- other preexisting condition and/or causal sequence of events on Death Certificate (CD)
Causal sequence of events mean the train of morbid events that led to death. That is Covid causes A which then caused B which caused death.

I actually do not understand the 8.6% because Covid itself does not cause death. There is necessarily a causal sequence of events.





Here are the top 10 preexisting chronic conditions associated with a Covid death



Here are the top disease outcomes of Covid - the disease which were in the causal chain of events leading to death, and likely the actual immediate cause of death even though Covid was underlying cause

 

[drron]

The really interesting thing with covid is how benign it appears to be in Africa. Nigeria with 200 million population has just over 3000 deaths.


The USA with a population of 330 million has had over a million deaths.


Lots of reasons given such as the prevalence of obesity. But came across an interesting article by a fellow that predicted early in 2020 that Africa would be far less affected because of the difference in our gut flora. our relative lack of parasites leaves us open to auto immune problems. An interesting read.

Between a hygiene rock and a hygienic hard place: Avoiding SARS-CoV-2 while needing environmental exposures for immunity

Abstract. Suboptimal understanding of concepts related to hygiene by the general public, clinicians and researchers is a persistent problem in health and m

academic.oup.com

Some are actually thinking worms may be the answer. This article is from 2015.

They might sound gross, but intestinal worms can actually be good for you

The thought of intestinal worms sneaking around our bodies is pretty unpleasant, but some types of worms are beneficial and could help treat inflammatory diseases.

theconversation.com

Of course in Africa vaccination rates are generally<105. Mask wearing basically doesn't happen and social distancing is never observed. Have we got it all wrong?

 

[JohnM]

The really interesting thing with covid is how benign it appears to be in Africa. Nigeria with 200 million population has just over 3000 deaths.
View attachment 286381

The USA with a population of 330 million has had over a million deaths.
View attachment 286382

Lots of reasons given such as the prevalence of obesity. But came across an interesting article by a fellow that predicted early in 2020 that Africa would be far less affected because of the difference in our gut flora. our relative lack of parasites leaves us open to auto immune problems. An interesting read.

Between a hygiene rock and a hygienic hard place: Avoiding SARS-CoV-2 while needing environmental exposures for immunity

Abstract. Suboptimal understanding of concepts related to hygiene by the general public, clinicians and researchers is a persistent problem in health and m

academic.oup.com

Some are actually thinking worms may be the answer. This article is from 2015.

They might sound gross, but intestinal worms can actually be good for you

The thought of intestinal worms sneaking around our bodies is pretty unpleasant, but some types of worms are beneficial and could help treat inflammatory diseases.

theconversation.com

Of course in Africa vaccination rates are generally<105. Mask wearing basically doesn't happen and social distancing is never observed. Have we got it all wrong?

I have a feeling that marching our current primary school kids into class day in and day out with a squirt of hand sanitiser and inculcating them with that as a routine part of life is going to:

a) come back to bite society

b) result in some similar, closer to home, journal papers in the future.

As a population biologist dealing in biological control and pest management, I have come to learn that biology is:

a) first and foremost counterintuitive

b) hard to beat...

 

[N860CR]

The really interesting thing with covid is how benign it appears to be in Africa. Nigeria with 200 million population has just over 3000 deaths.
View attachment 286381

The USA with a population of 330 million has had over a million deaths.
View attachment 286382

Lots of reasons given such as the prevalence of obesity. But came across an interesting article by a fellow that predicted early in 2020 that Africa would be far less affected because of the difference in our gut flora. our relative lack of parasites leaves us open to auto immune problems. An interesting read.

Between a hygiene rock and a hygienic hard place: Avoiding SARS-CoV-2 while needing environmental exposures for immunity

Abstract. Suboptimal understanding of concepts related to hygiene by the general public, clinicians and researchers is a persistent problem in health and m

academic.oup.com

Some are actually thinking worms may be the answer. This article is from 2015.

They might sound gross, but intestinal worms can actually be good for you

The thought of intestinal worms sneaking around our bodies is pretty unpleasant, but some types of worms are beneficial and could help treat inflammatory diseases.

theconversation.com

Of course in Africa vaccination rates are generally<105. Mask wearing basically doesn't happen and social distancing is never observed. Have we got it all wrong?

The majority of African countries have bigger issues than a fairly mild cold (coronavirus). It’s something that is largely laughed off across the continent.

 

[drron]

Another study on problems with masks.

The Foegen effect: A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate - PubMed

Extensive evidence in the literature supports the mandatory use of facemasks to reduce the infection rate of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, which causes the coronavirus disease (COVID-19). However, the effect of mask use on the disease course remains controversial. This study...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And all is not happy in the CDC ,NIH and FDA.

The calls and text messages are relentless. On the other end are doctors and scientists at the top levels of the NIH, FDA and CDC. They are variously frustrated, exasperated and alarmed about the direction of the agencies to which they have devoted their careers.

At the NIH, doctors and scientists complain to us about low morale and lower staffing: The NIH’s Vaccine Research Center has had many of its senior scientists leave over the last year, including the director, deputy director and chief medical officer. “They have no leadership right now. Suddenly there’s an enormous number of jobs opening up at the highest level positions,” one NIH scientist told us. (The people who spoke to us would only agree to be quoted anonymously, citing fear of professional repercussions.)

U.S. Public Health Agencies Aren't ‘Following the Science,’ Officials Say

‘People are getting bad advice and we can’t say anything.’

www.commonsense.news

 

[JohnM]

Another study on problems with masks.

The Foegen effect: A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate - PubMed

Extensive evidence in the literature supports the mandatory use of facemasks to reduce the infection rate of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, which causes the coronavirus disease (COVID-19). However, the effect of mask use on the disease course remains controversial. This study...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And all is not happy in the CDC ,NIH and FDA.

U.S. Public Health Agencies Aren't ‘Following the Science,’ Officials Say

‘People are getting bad advice and we can’t say anything.’

www.commonsense.news

Just remember, in the words of that great philosopher Homer J Simpson: "Stupidity got us to this point; stupidity will get us out."

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The really interesting thing with covid is how benign it appears to be in Africa. Nigeria with 200 million population has just over 3000 deaths.
View attachment 286381

The USA with a population of 330 million has had over a million deaths.
View attachment 286382

Lots of reasons given such as the prevalence of obesity. But came across an interesting article by a fellow that predicted early in 2020 that Africa would be far less affected because of the difference in our gut flora. our relative lack of parasites leaves us open to auto immune problems. An interesting read.

Between a hygiene rock and a hygienic hard place: Avoiding SARS-CoV-2 while needing environmental exposures for immunity

Abstract. Suboptimal understanding of concepts related to hygiene by the general public, clinicians and researchers is a persistent problem in health and m

academic.oup.com

Some are actually thinking worms may be the answer. This article is from 2015.

They might sound gross, but intestinal worms can actually be good for you

The thought of intestinal worms sneaking around our bodies is pretty unpleasant, but some types of worms are beneficial and could help treat inflammatory diseases.

theconversation.com

Of course in Africa vaccination rates are generally<105. Mask wearing basically doesn't happen and social distancing is never observed. Have we got it all wrong?

Wearing a mask is not ‘getting it wrong’. It is a simple precaution that can help prevent spread from an infected person.

It costs almost nothing in terms of effort, it’s easy, it’s cheap. Physical distancing is even easier save for some circumstances.

Just western people aren’t used to considering the good of the whole. We are much more focussed on the individual.

 

[JohnM]

Wearing a mask is not ‘getting it wrong’. It is a simple precaution that can help prevent spread from an infected person.

It costs almost nothing in terms of effort, it’s easy, it’s cheap. Physical distancing is even easier save for some circumstances.

Just western people aren’t used to considering the good of the whole. We are much more focussed on the individual.

You've answered your own question.

Certainly wear a mask or socially distance - if you are (or think you may be) infected.

But what is the point of wearing a mask of dubious protective benefit if you are not infected?

However, irrespective of all that, you are free to wear a mask for the rest of your life (which it will be if you take your concern to its natural conclusion) - but that does not entitle anyone to impose a data-free opinion upon others or ridicule them.

I prefer not to wear a mask if I can avoid it. I find them gagging and claustrophobic and they fog my spectacles. Also, I can barely understand anything people are saying while they are wearing a mask (particularly the FAs on an aircraft).

And just think of hearing-impaired people who rely on lip-reading to understand what people are saying. It's hard enough ordinarily, but impossible when those others are wearing a mask. I have close personal knowledge for making that statement.

I suggest that it is worth thinking of the knowledge and circumstances of all others before making blanket criticisms of 'western' citizens...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You've answered your own question.

Certainly wear a mask or socially distance - if you are (or think you may be) infected.

But what is the point of wearing a mask of dubious protective benefit if you are not infected?

However, irrespective of all that, you are free to wear a mask for the rest of your life (which it will be if you take your concern to its natural conclusion) - but that does not entitle anyone to impose a data-free opinion upon others or ridicule them.

I prefer not to wear a mask if I can avoid it. I find them gagging and claustrophobic and they fog my spectacles. Also, I can barely understand anything people are saying while they are wearing a mask (particularly the FAs on an aircraft).

And just think of hearing-impaired people who rely on lip-reading to understand what people are saying. It's hard enough ordinarily, but impossible when those others are wearing a mask. I have close personal knowledge for making that statement.

I suggest that it is worth thinking of the knowledge and circumstances of all others before making blanket criticisms of 'western' citizens...

Many people may not know they are infected in the early stages, and therefore be able to correspond the need to wear a mask.

 

[N860CR]

Many people may not know they are infected in the early stages, and therefore be able to correspond the need to wear a mask.

So the plan is masks for eternity, is it? You’ve been asked countless times but always deflect.

I wouldn’t cast the entire western world as selfish and uncaring purely because they are opposed to wearing not for purpose face coverings that have not been proven to serve any real purpose. Unsure why were holding the eastern world up on some pedestal because of their desire to do this.

 

[JohnK]

So the plan is masks for eternity, is it? You’ve been asked countless times but always deflect.

I wouldn’t cast the entire western world as selfish and uncaring purely because they are opposed to wearing not for purpose face coverings that have not been proven to serve any real purpose. Unsure why were holding the eastern world up on some pedestal because of their desire to do this.

I'm struggling to understand your stance.

If wearing masks for eternity is the simplest solution going forward then we need to find a way to cope with wearing masks.

I'm claustrophobic, I find masks uncomfortable and they fog my glasses which can be dangerous as I cannot see where I'm going but I happily wear a mask without much question.

Anyone that wishes to continue their care free attitude to the pandemic is wrong and entirely selfish.

Next thing you'll tell us that social distancing is wrong.

 

[drron]

@JohnK wearing masks in the real world is making no significant difference. Countries such as Japan ,Taiwan and South Korea which are noted for their compliance with wearing masks have not been able to stop the Omicron waves.
Then there is Africa where mask wearing is estimated at around 3% cases and mortality are significantly less than here.

Many studies comparing States ,Counties and schools with or without a mask mandate show no difference in case numbers or mortality from Covid.
It’s time to bring some normality back to our lives. The fear merchants have had enough time so let us listen to those with some common sense and stop destroying our way of life.

 

[Quickstatus]

social distancing

While an official policy I don’t know that it was ever done correctly in all places.( maybe places where indoor numbers are capped).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So the plan is masks for eternity, is it? You’ve been asked countless times but always deflect.

I wouldn’t cast the entire western world as selfish and uncaring purely because they are opposed to wearing not for purpose face coverings that have not been proven to serve any real purpose. Unsure why were holding the eastern world up on some pedestal because of their desire to do this.

The medical field is learning more about covid every day. New drugs are coming out. New strains are emerging. This pandemic is still only a couple years old. I’m not advocating masks for eternity, to paint it as black and white as that is misleading.

As time goes on we’ll better understand and better manage. Perhaps there’ll be a more effective vaccine next month. Who knows.

Doctors on this thread have stated masks can be effective if used by those with covid, to help prevent spread.