Grammar Discussions

[Deleted member 29185]

I once heard someone on radio ask why someone who escapes from prison is an 'escapee' when the 'ee' ending is normally used for the 'victim' grammatically. By that rule the prison is the 'escapee' and the prisoner is an 'escaper' (or 'escapor'?)

Example?

The escapee is the subject of the act of escaping an entity (the gaoler). Same as a detainee is the subject of the act of detention by an entity (the detainer). So too is an employee the subject of the act of employment by an entity (the employer).

However I'm unsure in that case, why a prisoner is not a prisonee and why the prison is not referred to as the prisoner :shock:

 

[Deleted member]

Example?

The escapee is the subject of the act of escaping an entity (the gaoler). Same as a detainee is the subject of the act of detention by an entity (the detainer). So too is an employee the subject of the act of employment by an entity (the employer).

However I'm unsure in that case, why a prisoner is not a prisonee and why the prison is not referred to as the prisoner :shock:

It's something to do with transitive ( I think ) verbs.

 

[Jack_OC]

However I'm unsure in that case, why a prisoner is not a prisonee and why the prison is not referred to as the prisoner :shock:

It's an interesting one, but I think the explanation is that the derivation of the word prisoner is completely different - all the other examples you gave derive from verbs (escape, detain, employ) but "prison" is not a verb. The relevant verb is actually "imprison", and although rarely used terms, someone who is imprisoned is an imprisonee and the entity that locks them up is the imprisoner. Similarly, a person gaoled is a gaolee and the person locking them up is a gaoler.

My guess is that prisoner derives from someone who belongs to a prison, but I'm not sure.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

It's an interesting one, but I think the explanation is that the derivation of the word prisoner is completely different - all the other examples you gave derive from verbs (escape, detain, employ) but "prison" is not a verb. The relevant verb is actually "imprison", and although rarely used terms, someone who is imprisoned is an imprisonee and the entity that locks them up is the imprisoner. Similarly, a person gaoled is a gaolee and the person locking them up is a gaoler.

My guess is that prisoner derives from someone who belongs to a prison, but I'm not sure.

Sounds feasible......thanks!

 

[NM]

I once heard someone on radio ask why someone who escapes from prison is an 'escapee' when the 'ee' ending is normally used for the 'victim' grammatically. By that rule the prison is the 'escapee' and the prisoner is an 'escaper' (or 'escapor'?)

Ahh, now THAT explains it! As am employee, I am the victim of my employer

 

[get me outta here]

"Those ones" instead of 'those', 'that one' or 'mine'. 'Ones' ... is that a plural of 'one' or what?

"Them" instead of 'those'. Then, you can combine those two into, "them ones" Beaudy.

 

[Jack_OC]

"Those ones" instead of 'those', 'that one' or 'mine'. 'Ones' ... is that a plural of 'one' or what?

Yes, "ones" is the plural of "one", and AFAIK it is not incorrect.

From the Macmillan Dictionary:

as a pronoun (the plural of this pronoun is ones and the possessive is one's):
-It's a good book, but his last one was better.
-One has to trust one's family.
-They are the ones who suffered.

From the OED:

Pronoun
A person of a specified kind: "my friends and loved ones"

From "A tramp abroad" by Mark Twain:

"One lecture follows right on the heels of another, with very little time for the student to get out of one hall and into the next; but the industrious ones manage it by going on a trot."

(With thanks to Google BTW, I didn't pluck the Mark Twain quote out of my head!)

 

[Warks]

How often do you see sight and site confused now?

Here's one from a Murdoch rag just then:

THE answer has been there all along. Hiding in plain site. Has Twitter finally worked out where LeBron James will take his superstar talent next season?

Anyone who gets this wrong should be shot on sight. And on site.

 

[Major]

"Lexophile" is a word used to describe those that love using words in rather unique ways,such as "you can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish", or "to write with a broken pencil is pointless." A competition to see who can come up with the best one is held every year.

This year's winning submission is posted at the very end.


When fish are in schools, they sometimes take debate.

A thief who stole a calendar got twelve months.

When the smog lifts in Los Angeles U.C.L.A.

The batteries were given out free of charge.

A dentist and a manicurist married. They fought tooth and nail.

A will is a dead giveaway.

With her marriage, she got a new name and a dress.

A boiled egg is hard to beat.

When you've seen one shopping Centre, you've seen a mall.

Police were called to a day care Center where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.

Did you hear about the fellow whose whole left side was cut off? He's all right now.

A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired.

When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds.

The guy who fell onto an upholstery machine is now fully recovered.

He had a photographic memory which was never developed.

When she saw her first strands of gray hair she thought she'd dye.

Acupuncture is a jab well done. That's the point of it.

And the cream of the wretched crop:

Those who get too big for their pants will be exposed in the end.

 

[polardabar]

I just giggled my way through these, while my co-workers gave me weird looks.

 

[Happy Trails]

Want to write like a spy?
Try the CIA style manual.

Directorate of Intelligence Style Manual & Writers Guide for Intelligence Publications, Eighth Edition, 2011

 

[TheEmu]

"Those ones" instead of 'those', 'that one' or 'mine'. 'Ones' ... is that a plural of 'one' or what?

"Them" instead of 'those'. Then, you can combine those two into, "them ones" Beaudy.

Yes, "ones" is the plural of "one", and AFAIK it is not incorrect.
...

It's not the pluralisation of 'one' that is the problem, rather, as get me outta here pointed out,
the 'ones' is superfluous.

 

[Jack_OC]

It's not the pluralisation of 'one' that is the problem, rather, as get me outta here pointed out,
the 'ones' is superfluous.

The previous post I responded to suggested "that one" was an acceptable alternative to "those ones". The only difference between those two examples is pluralisation. If the "ones" is superfluous in "those ones", then the "one" is superfluous in "that one"!

Personally, I don't have a problem with either - I think the pronoun adds specificity and is therefore not superfluous. The pronoun is after all replacing a noun, and I don't think you would argue that a noun is superfluous in the same context (eg "those people").

 

[anat0l]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet:

 

[TheEmu]

The previous post I responded to suggested "that one" was an acceptable alternative to "those ones". The only difference between those two examples is pluralisation. If the "ones" is superfluous in "those ones", then the "one" is superfluous in "that one"!

Personally, I don't have a problem with either - I think the pronoun adds specificity and is therefore not superfluous. The pronoun is after all replacing a noun, and I don't think you would argue that a noun is superfluous in the same context (eg "those people").

Actually I would argue exactly that, as a noun can be understood. Repeating the noun is superfluous when the subject/object is understood and a pronoun can be used. If specificity is required, then the subject is not clear and the noun should be used.
"Those" and "these" usually function as adjectives or determiners but can also become pronouns.
For example, if discussing widgits, the question might be asked, "Which ones do you like?" There is no need to use "widgits" as the subject is understood (and the pluralisation of "one" is correct.)
In this case the answer may simply be, "These", which then becomes the pronoun as the noun (widgets) is understood.
The use of "ones" to follow "these" or "those" is as clumsy and unnecessary as repeating the noun, even if it's grammatically correct.
Your extrapolation that if it is superfluous in the plural, it must also be so for the singular, is eroneous. Singular and plural often have different rules...conjugate a few verbs to find some examples.

 

[Jack_OC]

Actually I would argue exactly that, as a noun can be understood. Repeating the noun is superfluous when the subject/object is understood and a pronoun can be used. If specificity is required, then the subject is not clear and the noun should be used.
"Those" and "these" usually function as adjectives or determiners but can also become pronouns.
For example, if discussing widgits, the question might be asked, "Which ones do you like?" There is no need to use "widgits" as the subject is understood (and the pluralisation of "one" is correct.)
In this case the answer may simply be, "These", which then becomes the pronoun as the noun (widgets) is understood.
The use of "ones" to follow "these" or "those" is as clumsy and unnecessary as repeating the noun, even if it's grammatically correct.
Your extrapolation that if it is superfluous in the plural, it must also be so for the singular, is eroneous. Singular and plural often have different rules...conjugate a few verbs to find some examples.

It's really just a matter of opinion whether language is "clumsy" or not.

BTW, it seems "those ones" and "these ones" are considered to be perfectly acceptable in Britain, but less so in the US - according to Arnold Zwicky, Professor Linguistics at Stanford: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004991.html

 

[Warks]

Dedicated to JessicaTam the OP:

[video=youtube;8Gv0H-vPoDc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc[/video]

 

[JohnK]

"Give us it back!"

Seriously? Not sure where the "us" fits in when you are talking about yourself.

 

[get me outta here]

I think it's the 'royal' us . It's an oft used saying that some England natives use.

"Give us it back!"

Seriously? Not sure where the "us" fits in when you are talking about yourself.

 

[JessicaTam]

Dedicated to JessicaTam the OP:[video=youtube;8Gv0H-vPoDc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc[/video]

Delightful. Thank you.