High Court reveals every current judge is a member of Qantas' Chairman's Lounge

[Quickstatus]

pesky pens with the drug name on them let alone a sticky note

Coffee mugs

I am satisfied judges are able to set aside any consideration of airline membership from their duties when hearing cases.

I am unable to set it aside. Judges are no different to anyone. If they were completely impartial there would be no need for 7 judges on a full bench.

It is not enough that each Justice declare they are impartial. It is the perception that is important.

Justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done.

In other words :there must be nothing about the proceedings that could give any appearance of bias or unfairness and such an appearance is enough to overturn a judicial decision.

The public must have confidence in the Judiciary. I suspect most in the Pub will say this does not (at least) reinforce that confidence

 

[CaptJCool]

seems the Judges are in good company

AGD employee gifts and benefits register

A list of gifts and benefits we have received.

www.ag.gov.au

https://www.opc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-07/OPC%20Gift%20Register.pdf

Accountability publications

Download and read our accountability publications.

www.osi.gov.au

theres a lot of links here

Agency Head gifts and benefits registers

Australian Public Service Agency Heads must publish a register of gifts and benefits they accept that are valued at over $AUD100.00 (excluding GST), in accordance with the Australian Public Service Commission’s Guidance for Agency Heads: Gifts and Benefits.

www.apsc.gov.au

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Coffee mugs

I am unable to set it aside. Judges are no different to anyone. If they were completely impartial there would be no need for 7 judges on a full bench.

It is not enough that each Justice declare they are impartial. It is the perception that is important.

Justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done.

In other words :there must be nothing about the proceedings that could give any appearance of bias or unfairness and such an appearance is enough to overturn a judicial decision.

The public must have confidence in the Judiciary. I suspect most in the Pub will say this does not (at least) reinforce that confidence

I’m not sure how impartiality relates to their interpretation of the law? The reason for multiple judges is not that they could be partial, it’s to get a majority interpretation of the law.

 

[KSC]

Why would you publish a name of all of the CLs openly?

Not all of them are politicians, not all of them are evil, and not all of them would necessarily like to be outed, no matter how obvious their place within the membership may be.

Heck, why don't we just publish the names of all of the QF elites so they are openly accessible, including Silvers, Golds, Platinums, Platinum Ones and all Lifetime elites?

I’m glad us Bronzes lifers get to remain anonymous in this scenario.

 

[kpc]

seems the Judges are in good company

AGD employee gifts and benefits register

A list of gifts and benefits we have received.

www.ag.gov.au

https://www.opc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-07/OPC%20Gift%20Register.pdf

Accountability publications

Download and read our accountability publications.

www.osi.gov.au

I like how declaring it, makes it OK

 

[Quickstatus]

The reason for multiple judges is not that they could be partial, it’s to get a majority interpretation of the law.

It is naive to think that intepretation of the law is not ever coloured by bias

 

[kpc]

Some have integrity!

Integrity MPs willing to risk Qantas perks in pursuit of airline issues

Independent MPs Allegra Spender and Andrew Wilkie said Qantas was welcome to revoke their privileges. Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather refused membership.

www.smh.com.au

 

[PineappleSkip]

I like how declaring it, makes it OK

The registers are all required to be there in line with APSC "guidelines" for declaring gifts. A little lame when the agency isn't required to name names.

 

[DC3]

There are some positions in life that require absolute impartiality. I'd have thought a Judge, let alone a High Court Judge, might just be one of those.

Yes, plenty of huffing and puffing from some on here isn’t there?

 

[XWu]

Some have integrity!

Integrity MPs willing to risk Qantas perks in pursuit of airline issues

Independent MPs Allegra Spender and Andrew Wilkie said Qantas was welcome to revoke their privileges. Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather refused membership.

www.smh.com.au

Strange, what’s integrity for some is just cherry picking for others.

in my books, anything that is offered free to me by private industries simply because of the elected position I am in, expecting that, in some future, I may be involved in the regulation or decision-making affecting that industry, pretty much compromise that integrity.

having membership to the chairman lounge or beyond club is no different from free access to the VIP lounge at the racecourse or the MCG. If anyone like those indep MPs want to scream integrity, imo, should simply hand in their membership, rather than saying they don’t care if their membership is revoked.

they can always pay for qantas club lounge access if they want some privacy, and stay away from other politicians who will mostly be at the chairman’s anyway

 

[DC3]

… they can always pay for qantas club lounge access if they want some privacy, and stay away from other politicians who will mostly be at the chairman’s anyway

… at the Qantas Pub?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

seems the Judges are in good company

AGD employee gifts and benefits register

A list of gifts and benefits we have received.

www.ag.gov.au

https://www.opc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-07/OPC%20Gift%20Register.pdf

Accountability publications

Download and read our accountability publications.

www.osi.gov.au

theres a lot of links here

Agency Head gifts and benefits registers

Australian Public Service Agency Heads must publish a register of gifts and benefits they accept that are valued at over $AUD100.00 (excluding GST), in accordance with the Australian Public Service Commission’s Guidance for Agency Heads: Gifts and Benefits.

www.apsc.gov.au

I notice in these declarations of lounge memberships from Virgin and Qantas that the value is listed as N/A. Doesn't this technically mean that they don't need to declare since its value is immaterial? I mean where do they draw the line? If I'm at court and head to the vending machine to pick up a snickers bar and notice a judge struggling to find a dime to feed the machine and put one of my dimes in the machine for him does that need to be declared? If so how would it be declared: 10 cents towards the purchase of a $3 snickers bar from the Hornsby High Court vending machine.

-RooFlyer88

 

[burmans]

Which is the line of argument used by a former premier of NSW in relation to her ability to separate her relationship from her work as Treasurer in allocating grants. ICAC found her corrupt. The person with the actual or perceived conflict of interest is probably not best placed to decide if they have a conflict - they are most likely to say they can keep things separate, although most people don’t seem to believe that.

People always say they can keep things seperate but the evidence is pretty strong that bias is real even when individuals feel they aren’t.

 

[burmans]

I am satisfied judges are able to set aside any consideration of airline membership from their duties when hearing cases. Their professional reputation should trump any fear of loss of membership!

If it were true that judges had to be absolutely impartial… should they also be banned from voting? A liberal party voting judge might be more inclined to side with tough labour laws than a labour-voting judge?

We need to draw the line somewhere, I’m not sure membership of the CL is it?

You may be satisfied of this but there is plenty of evidence of unconscious bias even when those showing that bias are absolutely convinced of their impartiality. That’s why so many government departments have a rule against this, not necessarily because you would show partiality but but you also must remove any possibility of partiality.

As for your question on judges, well we have all seen what has happened in America, hence the reason most western democracies ask for a little more than blind faith in the impartiality of their judges.

 

[RichardMEL]

Or you just do what Israel (or at least the current government) is trying to do and try to bypass the judges when those pesky legal eagles just won't do what you want them to do.....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You may be satisfied of this but there is plenty of evidence of unconscious bias even when those showing that bias are absolutely convinced of their impartiality. That’s why so many government departments have a rule against this, not necessarily because you would show partiality but but you also must remove any possibility of partiality.

As for your question on judges, well we have all seen what has happened in America, hence the reason most western democracies ask for a little more than blind faith in the impartiality of their judges.

Yes. Bias can be an issue.

Just not sure CL membership is a factor!!

 

[TheRealTMA]

I really fail to see why everyone is getting hot under the collar about the CL. Seems a reasonable thing to me, even though I'm not and never will be invited. New Corp seem to be becoming somewhat hystertical about it. Amusing since the senior managers are presumably members.

 

[KSC]

Yes. Bias can be an issue.

Just not sure CL membership is a factor!!

It’s the modern day version of Moet supplying champagne to the government and military. There is definitely a level of influence involved, however it’s upto the employee to choose to accept or deny.
Most likely a grey area has been created with the terms for government employees, that facilitates the acceptance of a CL membership.
Along with other benefits their is most likely a ‘thank you’ gift. Eg a verbal agreement or talk on points and privileges given after your government term has been completed.
I’m no saint and if I knew legally I could accept both Virgin and Qantas VIP memberships without impact, I would.
I would also stop talking shade on them in forums if I got those benefits.

I think I’m a pretty safe bet for VIP status inclusion without any business ramifications, so this is my pledge for membership . Let’s show the media you have a few plebs that make the cut for CL as part of community service.

Thanks is advance.

 

[MARTINE]

It is an interesting debate if nothing else.

Having had a career in medicine we were basically TOLD we could never be impartial - even if we thought we were - accepting a branded pad of sticky notes and bad pizza from a drug company. Codes of practice and many (not unreasonable) constraints were applied. We were highly trained specialists - but our clinical judgement would be compromised.
So thats that.

On that background and my later experience at the corporate/pub sector interface - I reached the conclusion inducements should be banned for all who have power to make decisions that favor -or not - the supplier of the inducement.

If it makes ‘ no difference ‘ why offer it?

Advertising/marketing 101 - of course it makes a difference. Look up the research.

If sacrosanct security enclaves are required for high court judges /politicians the fed govt can build them at airports surveilled by AFP and the instant coffee and last weeks biscuits can be made freely available.

I doubt QF is doing a public service by CL lounge to meet such requests.

 

[jb747]

Alan did nothing out of the goodness of his heart. Perhaps they can remain totally impartial, but in offering it at all there would be the hope that it might make a slight difference.